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Corvette 50th Aniversary


xilica

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  • 2 Monate später...
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Better than fine, they just got the magnetic shock dampening from Cadillac, and the Z6 is slated for more displacement (maybe corvette gets the 364) and also the twin cam in the block (it is still a pushrod setup, but it has setperate cams for exhaust and intake) developed by GM's european opel for the 346LS1 may be employed. With these factors, i would not be suprised to see C6 Z06 turning out maybe as much as 450hp - making it atleast 2X as affordable as any other comperable car -

Corvette - The essence of the American Sports car

(if only only they'd give in and get rid of those lousy pushrod engines)

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  • 4 Wochen später...

They offered a DOHC Corvette(ZR1) from 1990-95. The first and the only non-pushrod vette offered. The engine (LT5) offered a joint effort by GM and Loutus that produced the most refined, beautiful engine package on a Corvette. It was designed and test in England and built by Mercruiser in the US because of their experience with aluminum engines.(the LT5 is an all aluminum design) The ZR1 is good enough to put 01' ZO6 to shame and give 02' Z06's a run for their money. It also boasts top speeds in excess of 180mph with an idle that allows a nickle to be balanced on its plenum. Not bad for a car first produced 12 years ago....

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No one doubts how great the LT5 is, the problem is that DOHC never caught on in vette (or at GM). Imagine that engine (which would go toe to toe with the LS6) with advanced variable valve timing and intake control - as well as better fuel injection technology and ECU enhancements now available. It would definately be making many many more horsepower. It was a great engine - and if they had continued developing it - it would definately be at least on par with the greatest european and japanese supercar engines.

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GM had to let LT5 die - first off - it was expensive - not of in-house origin - and also - at the time, the plan included a version of the new "NorthStar" V8 to come to vette eventually. I guess for development costs they decided to enhace LT1 into LS1 and LS6. GM really needs to get with everyone else and use overhead camshafts. Corvette would be truly world class if GM:

Got rid of the leaf-spring suspension (they have done good things with it, think what could be done with coils, all of the magnetic and autoride tech in the world can't fix funadmental design.

Use a NorthStar. The Northstar are some of the most advanced and powerful engines of their type built - they are truly on par with their european and japanese counterparts - in many ways superior. If they were to bore it out to say 5.0 - 5.5 - give it the VVT and VIT from the new 4600 - and tweak it a bit - 450 -500 hp is no stretch. It would deliver more efficency - better refinement, more power - and a flatter torque curve.

Get a new interior. The current one looks like someone melted down legoland to build it. It is efficent - kinda sleek - but not classy or sophisticated (or luxurious). They have some good things going, but a more upscale design and better materials would go a long way.

Otherwise, I see very few big flaws in vette.

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  • 3 Monate später...

Looks like an Aluminum Hydro Formed Frame in the new C6, which will debut in July 2004 as a 2005. Weight in the 2,800-2,900 range. 6.6 liter engine with perhaps a camless design!!

Also a new interior with Audi as a guide!! Dave Hill, the Chief Engineer says they are addressing all known problems.....

450 BHP is what I'm hearing.....but who knows what's fact, potential fact and just a rumor.

2800 lbs and 450 BHP is 6.22 HP per pound.....in stock form my Z06 was 8.09 lbs per HP.....modified, I'm at about 5.87 pounds per HP.

Porsche's GT2 is about 7.25 HP per pound.

New Viper is 6.7 HP per pound.

Ferrari's Enzo is about 4.66 lbs per HP.

Lingenfelter's Twin Turbo 7 liter puts out 812 BHP and weighs about 3,300, which is 4.06 lbs per HP.

The new Bugatti with 987(?) BHP must be even less weight per HP.

I find this is one interesting way to compare Super Cars :wink:

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  • 4 Wochen später...

I think you mean pounds per hp there 01ZEE06. Though it'd be pretty sweet to have 7.2 hp per pound in a 3000 pound car. We're talking 21,000+ hp. Cripes, Funny cars only have a quarter of that. :lol:

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21000hp, christ, that is impressive for a commercial airliner.

I suspect the Bugatti will be pretty heavy.

The enzo should probably accelerate better for that kind of power/weight, and the lingenfelter was designed for 0-60 and quartermile performance.

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  • 1 Monat später...
GM had to let LT5 die - first off - it was expensive - not of in-house origin - and also - at the time, the plan included a version of the new "NorthStar" V8 to come to vette eventually. I guess for development costs they decided to enhace LT1 into LS1 and LS6. GM really needs to get with everyone else and use overhead camshafts. Corvette would be truly world class if GM:

Got rid of the leaf-spring suspension (they have done good things with it, think what could be done with coils, all of the magnetic and autoride tech in the world can't fix funadmental design.

Use a NorthStar. The Northstar are some of the most advanced and powerful engines of their type built - they are truly on par with their european and japanese counterparts - in many ways superior. If they were to bore it out to say 5.0 - 5.5 - give it the VVT and VIT from the new 4600 - and tweak it a bit - 450 -500 hp is no stretch. It would deliver more efficency - better refinement, more power - and a flatter torque curve.

Get a new interior. The current one looks like someone melted down legoland to build it. It is efficent - kinda sleek - but not classy or sophisticated (or luxurious). They have some good things going, but a more upscale design and better materials would go a long way.

Otherwise, I see very few big flaws in vette.

Some interesting points you've made. However, I have to disagree with you.

As far as the leaf springs in the rear suspension, yes it sounds low tech, but why fix something that really isn't broken? The Corvette is one of the best balanced sports cars in the world, so incredibly easy and instinctive to drive even when you're pushing the limit, and GM has achieved all of the handling benchmarks they set for themselves when they designed the C5. So what's wrong with it? That said, I hear the 2005 Corvette, when it's unveiled, will see major changes in suspension design.

As to the LS1 vs. NorthStar issue, again, what is the point of fixing what's not broken? General Motors reached a crossroads in the Corvette program in 1993 when they were designing the C5 and had to decide whether to use a second generation LT5 motor using the multivalve dual overhead cam design or evolve the small block pushrod V-8 yet again. GM figured out that by simply using some of the design characteristics applied to the multivalve motors on the pushrod motor, they could enable it to breathe nearly as well as the multivalve design. The pushrod design offers infinitely better value, absolutely outstanding power (2001 and newer LS1s develop 350 horses, just 25 less than the 1990-1992 ZR-1, and 375 lb.-ft. of torque, equal to the '90-92 ZR-1), and a much simpler design with lower maintenance costs and better reliability. The LS1 offers an enormous amount of low end grunt, with 300 lb.-ft. of torque online at just 1200 rpm, and peaking at 2100, holding 375 lb.-ft. all the way up to redline at 6000. It's the most rev happy pushrod engine probably ever to find its way into a production car, and that's thanks to all the work the GM engineers did on making it breathe like a multivalve.

The LS1 is not a descendant of the LT1. It's a different design, deep skirt aluminum alloy block, shorter stroke, and totally different porting and breathing characteristics. The only thing the LS1 has in common with its ancestors is the fact that it has 8 cylinders and it's built by GM. It's not even a true 5.7 liter. It's a 347 cubic inch or 5665 cc displacement engine.

The NorthStar is a smaller engine, it probably couldn't be bored all the way out to 350 cubic inches and I think General Motors will drop dead before they put a 5.0 in a Corvette, if you get what I mean. If they had wanted to use a multivalve engine, they would have developed a second generation LT5. Also, for the record, General Motors and Lotus developed the LT5 together--GM owned Lotus at the time--and the engine was built by Mercruiser in Stillwater, Oklahoma because the low volume of LT5s built was not enough to justify a dedicated production line at GM's engine facility in Flint, Michigan. It was more cost effective to contract out the production.

The deep skirt 350 pushrod design that GM gave birth to for the LS1/LS6 has plenty of potential left in it, it delivers outstanding performance, and world class value, and it's true to Corvette tradtition. Oh, and did I mention it gets decent gas mileage.

As to the interior, I agree with you that it would have been nice to see some nicer materials used in some areas, however, aside from that, I think the interior is very sleek, has some very nice retro cues, and things like trunk size and seating position make the C5 as wonderful a car to take a long road trip in as it is to smoke a Boxster on the boulevard or attack some twisty back road.

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and I will agree that the LS1 is an excellent engine, one of the very best pushrods built. It is a new design from the LT series, but the design fundamentals are the same. You could rebore and stroke out a Northstar to get it north of 5. Even if they didn't, that engine is so genius it doesn't make a difference. The breathing on the LS1/LS6 heads is very good, but sheer mecahnics states you can never have the valve area with 2 valves you can with 4 or 5, so less air can get through. The engine is powerful, but a BMW 4.9L 32V V8 is even more powerful, has a flatter torque curve, revs higher, is smaller, and more refined. There were reliability issues with the LT5 engine (aside from very high maintainance costs) - Like most british engines. The idea was good, but GM would never have been able to put that into mass production, it would be way too expensive. The Northstar is already a mass produced, well known, and solid powerplant. The LS1 isn't broken, but give it 5 years, and again the europeans will be solidly shaming it. Even ford has moved to DOHC in their sports cars. Dodge is using the high efficency hemi design in their pushrods. In truck form, at 5.7L, the Dodge hemi is putting out 345hp - only 5 shy of the corvette LS1. With some more tuning, that engine has immense potential. Nowadays, OHC engines are no more expensive really than pushrod.

With the suspension, a corvette does not feel as naturally tossable for its weight as do many of its european competitors. They have done great things with the leaf spring, but it remains, that this layout just does not offer the at-the-limits "comfortable" feeling - like a BMW or Porsche might. It can follow either of those through the curves, it just won't feel as nice doing it.

It is a very impressive and compotent car, but I can't help but notice the cheaper Mustang Cobra (which has embraced both of these concepts) can perform equally as well in any performance test a LS1 corvette, and is larger and heavier. New cars out of Mercedes and BMW promise to raise the bar, GM has within their parts bin everything neccesary to make the corvette a world class sports car - so great europeans may even choose it over the german rivals, but still they stick to their old "L-Train" engine and leaf springs.

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  • 3 Wochen später...
and I will agree that the LS1 is an excellent engine, one of the very best pushrods built. It is a new design from the LT series, but the design fundamentals are the same. You could rebore and stroke out a Northstar to get it north of 5. Even if they didn't, that engine is so genius it doesn't make a difference. The breathing on the LS1/LS6 heads is very good, but sheer mecahnics states you can never have the valve area with 2 valves you can with 4 or 5, so less air can get through. The engine is powerful, but a BMW 4.9L 32V V8 is even more powerful, has a flatter torque curve, revs higher, is smaller, and more refined. There were reliability issues with the LT5 engine (aside from very high maintainance costs) - Like most british engines. The idea was good, but GM would never have been able to put that into mass production, it would be way too expensive. The Northstar is already a mass produced, well known, and solid powerplant. The LS1 isn't broken, but give it 5 years, and again the europeans will be solidly shaming it. Even ford has moved to DOHC in their sports cars. Dodge is using the high efficency hemi design in their pushrods. In truck form, at 5.7L, the Dodge hemi is putting out 345hp - only 5 shy of the corvette LS1. With some more tuning, that engine has immense potential. Nowadays, OHC engines are no more expensive really than pushrod.

With the suspension, a corvette does not feel as naturally tossable for its weight as do many of its european competitors. They have done great things with the leaf spring, but it remains, that this layout just does not offer the at-the-limits "comfortable" feeling - like a BMW or Porsche might. It can follow either of those through the curves, it just won't feel as nice doing it.

It is a very impressive and compotent car, but I can't help but notice the cheaper Mustang Cobra (which has embraced both of these concepts) can perform equally as well in any performance test a LS1 corvette, and is larger and heavier. New cars out of Mercedes and BMW promise to raise the bar, GM has within their parts bin everything neccesary to make the corvette a world class sports car - so great europeans may even choose it over the german rivals, but still they stick to their old "L-Train" engine and leaf springs.

I find it very hard to agree with the assertion that the Northstar V-8 could easily be adapted to a Corvette application. Certainly, the Northstar, which is smaller and much lighter than the now-defunct LT5, would have a hard time producing the kind of reliability numbers GM would require for an engine that would in its service life see mostly high rpm, aggressive driving.

I'm curious as to your information regarding the reliability issues of the LT5 engine, "like most British engines," as you stated. The LT5 was jointly designed by GM Powertrain in Romulus, Michigan and Lotus in Hethel, England. There were LT5 test vehicles both in the United States and in the United Kingdom, and the engine was built by Mercruiser in Stillwater, Oklahoma. How exactly is it an entirely British engine rather than a joint American-British product.

Regarding reliability, I have heard the LT5 described as being virtually bulletproof. While I don't think I would go quite that far, I can tell you that I have seen ZR-1s well north of 100,000 miles that still run perfectly. The only two problems I'm aware of that are typical of LT5 motors are the secondary actuator vacuum pumps which have the propensity to either quit or develop leaks and the crankcase breather tube gaskets which on some of the early cars were not correctly torqued in the factory, causing gradual oil seepage into the "engine valley" area underneath the plenum and intake. Both problems are easily corrected and do not require attention once corrected.

I think a fair description of the LT5 is that it requires more frequent scheduled maintenance and can be more finnicky than your average motor, but if well cared for, is far more durable than the average sports car motor. Most automotive journalists agree that while the ZR-1 was terribly misunderstood by almost the entire automotive industry, it returned the Corvette to its rightful place among the world supercar set, delivered the kind of value that Corvette customers expected while doing that, and brought never before seen levels of everyday driveability and ease of operation to a bonafide supercar.

As to the LS1, it doesn't have much at all in common with the LT1/LT4. It was a "clean sheet" redesign and this is shown by the dramatically different block designs, different materials, and different intake porting and camshaft profiles, just to name a few things that are different. The only carryover item from the LT1/LT4 to the LS1/LS6 was the factory equipped AC Delco battery.

The key factor in deciding to go with an all new smallblock rather than a Gen II LT5 was weight and power. A fully dressed LT5 weighs aroung 700 pounds, whereas a fully dressed LS1 is one of the lightest production V-8s in the world, weighing in at just 430 pounds. The LS6 has proven that the base design offers LT5 type power potential, and its 6500 rpm redline is just 700 rpm short of the LT5's almost surreal 7200 rpm. GM realized that they could produce a car that weighed less (and it does, at just 3100 pounds), produced a similar amount of power ('01-03 LS1 is pretty close to '90-92 LT5), and was just as fast (and it is, running 0-60 in about 4.7), if not faster (try the '02-03 Z06 at 3.9 0-60). And I can assure you from personal experience that the C5 is plenty fun to drive.

Suspension wise, I think the Corvette's relatively softer feeling suspension is more an effect of the Corvette's wider market appeal than any design flaw. One must remember that most Corvettes will see duty more as a weekend cruiser or daily driver than as a vehicle that is aggressively driven at all times. For autocross folks, and aggressive street drivers (like me) there is the Z51 suspension package, which firms up the ride and tightens the steering ratio, which makes the Vette, at least in my experience, feel every bit as razor sharp as anything coming out of Germany, or even Italy. The skidpad numbers speak for themselves.

Finally, the '03 Cobra is certainly an interesting car. It is somewhat telling of Ford's efforts that this is about their 7th try in the last 6 or so years to produce a car that can run with the Vette. By bolting a blower onto their DOHC 32 valve V-8, they've managed to increase their power above that of a non-Z06 Vette, and yet their car does not accelerate as fast, does not handle as well, and is not as prestigious as the Corvette. They also took a huge weight hit on their blower because they had to move from an aluminum alloy block to a cast iron one. One must remember that for every Corvette on the road, there are eight Mustangs. Mustangs range from SOHC V-6 vehicles to SOHC V-8 GTs to the Cobras, with that supercharged DOHC motor. As long as the Mustang is not a dedicated sports car, it will not be able to run with the Vette, or produce the kind of profit-per-unit numbers that the Corvette produces.

I dare say that the problem with the Corvette today is not the kind of engine or suspension that its engineers have bestowed upon it, the problem is folks like you that think more complex designs are better. Certainly, if we were comparing a Corvette, a Porsche 911, and a Cobra in a parking lot, the guy in the Cobra could brag about his high tech DOHC 32 valve design and his supercharger and the guy in the Porsche could talk about his high tech suspension and rear engine design. But when it comes time to hit the road, the Corvette can outaccelerate and outhandle both cars. And in the end, that's all that matters.

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Fun's over boys, this is the last Corvette like it. We're switchin' over to the mildly weird C6 Corvette (that's gonna cause some intense chin-scratching). At least the engine will have upwards of 400HP. Better than this 50th Anniversary C5's 350HP.

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I honestly prefer leaf springs because when I'm going fast around a curve, I like to know just how close I'm coming to the limit. Besides, if a car's too comfortable going fast around a curve, you don't quite get the full feeling of just how fast you're taking it. The interior could use a slight upgrade, as long as it's not too costly. The Corvette probably has the best "bang for the buck" out of any car out there. And with the engine, should we really ask for much more refinement? The Vette is classic because you expect it to go fast, handle wonderfully, and still smoke the tires right off the rims. Don't get me wrong, refinement is great, but you can't beat the feeling of a lot of low-end torque.

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i'm back!!

ok, yes, nearly everyone (except the die hard bimmer fan) will tell you nothing outdoes the vette as a pure sports car for the dollar. The leaf springs definately give a smoother ride than a trapezoidal link, multi-link, or a double wishbone layout, but at the price of feeling what the car is doing. I think I heard it once best put like this "a corvette and an M-Roadster will do the same thing through the twisties, only difference is that in the M, you can make adjustments the whole way through, and in the vette, you better have it figured out when you see the twisties ahead sign". It will do the same thing, it just doesn't give the feedback and flexibility to continually adjust to the road.

You mention that you have seen many ZR-1s north of 100,000. I will tell you that there isn't a european performance marque who doesn't fully expect that of every car they build. Yes, mercruiser built the LT-5 because they had the aluminum casting experience. The block design is GM in michigan, but the differentiating features are all british, and the engine behaves like a british motor. LS1 is truly impressive, I just feel that they have pushed the pushrod layout to the limits. In terms of physics, it is clear that an overhead cam motor with 4v/cyl should, of the same size be able to not only rev higher, have a flatter torque curve, have less high frequency vibration, but should pull just as much or better low end. There is quite a bit differentiating the LTs and LSs, the intake and ignition, as well as fabrication. The essential layout is similar. The Z06 is faster than ZR-1, but every other high performance car is faster today than a decade ago. The LT5 also requires levels of preventive maintainance that are foreign to most american car owners.

The 03 cobra gained 200lbs with the iron block and supercharger/intercooler assembly. With an iowa flat torque curve from 1500-6500, it can 0-60 in, depending on who you ask 4.7-4.9, placing it even with a LS1 Corvette. A cobra is cheaper, seats twice as many, has lower NVH (noise vibration harshness) than a vette, equals it in handling. How do you turn that down, seats more, even in performance, cheaper?

So it took them a while to get it right, it took chevy a while too.

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Just a quick comment before I read the whole thing: It's not just the "die-hard Bimmer fans that will tell you (well maybe I AM one of those die-hards but I know many who aren't but agree with me %100). I think the love for Corvettes (although shared by almost everyone), is most widely seen in the U.S., which is why you Americans love the 'Vette so much. But opinion sways heavily the further out of the U.S. you go. And I mean come on, reallistically how can you say the expensive 350HP 50th Anniversary 'Vette for example, has more bang for the buck than a bimmer? I may be referring to the wrong BMW, but the M3 has 350HP, and (probably, at the very least) equal thrills. Besides the last time I checked you had to pay less for an M3 than a 'Vette. I may be wrong, though, so all you die-hard 'Vette fans, please enlighten me.

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Well, a 50th aniversary edition sure. I am talking bargain basement, or even the Z06, which for 52k will get you 4 second 0-60s. An M3/M Roadster is definately an equal in hard performance, and beats it in practicality, but the corvette has "soul" if you will. If it were my money, it would be an SVT Cobra or M3, no doubt, but for a two door with the unique features corvette has, it is a good deal.

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Well yes that's what I was kind of going to say myself. I was about to mention that I guess the Vette has "soul" as you said, and is more of an icon than your boxy-old sports-coupe-sedan-type-box-thing M3. That was just my lop-sided one-dimensional opinion. Truthfully I think I'd only go for an M3 because it is so crazy, and because I've grown up loving BMWs madly.

Not that I love the mileage on the M-series, mind you.... Because even the performance and edginess of the Ms can't make up for the loss of milage, and the fact that you punch a hole in the ozone layer everytime you turn the key in a Motorsport-BMW doesn't help it much. I think practicality is not even being considered here, because it is being sacrficed quite a bit just to give the cars more power and an overall better driving experience. Seems like the M3 defeats the whole purpose of the 3-series.

One of the reasons my BMW-loving opinion is so biased is because in the mind of the average person a street car or sedan like a 3-series or 5-series (while performing very well) is not supposed to do 0-60 in sub-6. And neither is it supposed to be able to reach 280HP without breaking a sweat. that is why a Motorsport BMW is so cool to many people. And it is the same reason I'd prefer to have a tweaked average car, a car people don't expect to beat a Porsche. And then when the light turns green, you leave everyone in awe as your Hillman Hunter accelerates from 0 to oblivion in no more than 7 seconds. Of course then again I guess people are equally awed when they see a new Corvette.

And I guess you're right about the "bargain basement" deals, because I was thinking that people are generally comparing a brand new Vette to the Ms.

Oh, one more thing: how weird is the new C6 eh? I mean it seems like Pininfarina (or whoever's in charge of it) is really toying with the reputation of a car that has real identity.

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my greatest fear is that ferrari will destroy their image.

I also fear that the C6 will share too much with the Cadillac sports car to share the same platform.

I like that an M3 is a sleeper, but I love the looks you get in a corvette. The exhaust note of a corvette is ambrosia, the exhaust note of an M3 is abnoxious. The M3 seats 4 pretty well, vette seats two, and not all so comfortably. It is a tradeoff, the magic of the corvette or the practicality of M3.

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How will the Ferrari destroy it's image? I'd say they're doing fine for now with the Enzo, although when you make a car like that everyone will try to take a shot at you and you'll end up desperately trying to make something even better than that.

Well, I agree with you, and I wish I could WHOLE-HEARTEDLY agree with you, but I've sadly never been fortunate enough to even BE in a 'Vette. I do think I've been in an M3 though. Can't say the exhaust note was great. At least the car ripps. ...Went up a 40º hill in 6 seconds or so, when the other cars were facing the struggle of their lifetime. I guess I was too impressed with the performance to listen to the exhaust note. Not only that, but when you have music playing so loud in the car it's shattering your skull, even the sound of a gun-shot is drowned-out. Maybe I'll have to find someone who'se got a 'Vette, first, and get a ride from them or something! Heheh!

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Ferrari may try to go all high-techy, like enzo, it is in no way a classically beautiful car. It is hard edged, and really pretty strange. "Pininfarina" - ferrari's design, seems to be forgotten in the newer cars.

I have been fortunate enough to have ridden in quite a few different vette, and you can't help but enjoy the sound of the car. The car feels so effortless as it accelerates that you need the exhaust note to remember the engine is screeming.

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Well, I guess the 'Vette wins where the Viper loses. But the battle of the V's is more decisive in raw horses, where Viper is taking the crown.

Also, I think you need to ook at this before you say Pininfarina has been forgotten.

Besides, does the F50 lok so classic? I think not!?! I mean I know the Enzo looks like a cross between an F1 racer and a LeMans racer with a little too much junk in the trunk, but at least it's original, beautiful, and compellingly bizzarre. That's almost always a good thing.

By the way I don't know what a good exhast note would sound like to the average person, but I liked the exhaust sound in my dad's old BMW 518 and also in our old Hillman Avenger. I guess you'd have to have owned a Hillman for years growing up to know what I'm talking about.

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a bmw would sould nice, the 535 was amazing sounding. The old M5s sounded like chainsaws.

I grew up with every sort of a car around me, so I like just about everything.

Just not viper.

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Heh, yeah I gathered. You don't seem to like Vipers much.

Also my BMW was nowhere near an M5. It sounded ok. It didn't have a mad engine like the M5, but it also had a bit too little power (~100HP), so sometimes you really had to push it to hi-revs to get the performance you wanted out of it.

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Viper is goofy. Sure its fast, and with an engine that big, a competent engineer could shoot you to the moon.

The beauty of the old M5 is that it had a straight six that was torquey, and still had the high revving banshee motor qualities. I think the 3.8L M5 was the greatest car ever created at the hand of man.

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