Information on the Viper please.

[skyline_r34v]

It's prolly the Dodge Viper SRT-10 Carbon Concept.

[Anzeige eBay]

Hallo vertov,

 

kennst du schon Information on the Viper please. (Anzeige)? Dort ist vieles zu finden.

 

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[Metfanant]

It's prolly the Dodge Viper SRT-10 Carbon Concept.

thats supposed to be the motor that the coupe gets....but that has already been seen...wouldnt be much of a surprize to show that car....

Anthony

[skyline_r34v]

It would be much of a surprise 4 me to see it everyday. It's sweet as hell lookin.

[LateNightCable]

Yes, i agree that the Viper could get the job done with MUCH less displacement. BUT the thing with the 8.0L(488) and now the 8.3L(505) is, it's just a part of the cars image...MASSIVE V10 engine in a relativly light chassis with more torque then you know what to do with. But they wanted something outrageous...They wanted the car to stand out and be entirely American. And what is more American then trying to stuff the biggest motor possible under a car's hood?

This is true in a way, but they are really secondary reasons for why the Viper engine is as large as it is. Remember, that it began life as a Dodge truck motor - this is the main reason for it's size. Then, on a whim, it was sent to Lamborghini, where they in turn tranformed it into a high performance engine. The fact that it was the biggest F-ing engine under the good of a production car was simply iceing on the all-American marketing cake.

I've never been one to dis the Viper, but I don't think that it would have made such an impact if it had not had such a surplus of displacement to work with. Dodge accomplishing 100hp./liter - at least in the early 90s' I highly doubt, even if they wanted to. Afterall, they could have just left it at 500 c.i. but they probably needed more to meet their goals for standard power.

[Metfanant]

This is true in a way, but they are really secondary reasons for why the Viper engine is as large as it is. Remember, that it began life as a Dodge truck motor - this is the main reason for it's size. Then, on a whim, it was sent to Lamborghini, where they in turn tranformed it into a high performance engine. The fact that it was the biggest F-ing engine under the good of a production car was simply iceing on the all-American marketing cake.

eh, your sorta right there...actually there were 2 programs going on within Chrysler at the time....there was the truck engine, and the Viper engine...they were both slated to be 8.0L etc...but the truck was an iron block, low revving, low end torque, the Viper guys needed some top end...and they needed to save weight(use aluminum) so they told Lamborghini to design an engine...they did but it SUCKED....forget me explaining this....here it is straight from the the guys in charge....

From the book Dodge Viper by Daniel F. Carney:

Looking back, it seems astonishing that Team Viper was also building a radical new engine from a nearly clean sheet of paper, to a deadline pace. Ruling out the truck engine meant the team members had to build what they wanted themselves.

Said Francois Castaing "It was already April 1989. If we wanted the car to be ready by January 1992, we needed to really get going. But the timing for the truck engine was a year later. It also became obvious, when we looked at it more thoroughly, the weight of the iron engine was too high and the power we would get from it wouldn't be sporty enough." Francois was in charge of truck engineering at the time.

Said Roy Sjoberg , Team Viper's new executive engineer,"We rapidly ascertained, the truck guys and myself, that where we wanted a 6,200-rpm redline, the truck guys didn't really care to go over 4,200 rpm. They were interested in low-end torque, not horsepower at high-rpm levels where we were. They were not concerned about weight. Truckies don't like aluminum blocks. They're not as forgiving, and truck people like to have things that are pretty bulletproof.

"Not a lot could be learned from our truck V-10 development. Both engines were V-10s, but one was aluminum and one was iron; ours was sequential-fire individual-injected, and the truck's was group-injected, so it ended up having air pumps and things. We only needed EGR to meet the initial emission requirements, as well as a catalyst. The truckers had to put some other things on it. We ended up with the same dimension pushrod and that was it. But even there, we used a higher-grade material because of our power and rpm requirements."

In the end, there wasn't a single shared part with the Ram V-10 that was being built elsewhere within Chrysler.

As the notion to use the truck engine quickly faded, Team Viper went through a nervous period asking "Now what?" Said Castaing, "Bob Lutz was very anxious for the car to proceed, so he said maybe we can use the 5.9 V-8 instead. I said, "No, no, no, the V-10 is so magic as part of this car. We have to find a way to do an engine, even if it is a derivative of the truck engine. we have to explore a way of doing that."

"I was convinced that if we didn't make too many mistakes, there was a chance for us to have a better engine, a very distinctive engine in the V-10 and not another pumped-up V-8 like in the Corvette. Over the course of the summer, finally, Bob Lutz, who was concerned that this was not cutting it timing-wise, started relaxing. Obviously the engine was way more powerful than a V-8, so it was good from that perspective. The engine turned out to be, in my view, part of the legend of the car. I'm glad we insisted at the beginning that it had to stay a V-10." But the engine wasn't just part of the legend of the car, it was the car.

"At the time, we owned Lamborghini, so I called them and said, 'I need your help to convert as quickly as we can the drawings of a truck engine into an aluminum design from a cast-iron design. And I want your very fast prototyping sources to produce a math casting so we can start prototyping an engine for the Viper as quickly as we can.'

"They agreed to do that, so [engine manager] Jim Royer took the design and flew to Bologna, Italy, where Lamborghini's Formula One team was. Lamborghini assigned a couple [of] engineers and a drafter, and they modified quickly the block design, a casting of the block and the head to make it more like a car engine."

But it wasn't that simple. "Lamborghini was an acquisition we had," Sjoberg said, "so Francois thought that perhaps Lamborghini could help us in converting an iron V-10 concept to aluminum, because they should know about those things. They were designing the basic individual components from iron to aluminum. Our contract with them was to produce five aluminum engines, our basic design. They were to deliver five engines, running. We ended up getting one set of engine parts, nonrunning. At that point we separated."

"They were very oriented to high rpm, not oriented to torque, but oriented to horsepower at high rpm, they were not so worried about produceability and not so worried about reliability, and I was very insistent that we were going to have an engine that met all the basic Chrysler Corp. engine life and durability requirements, both dynamometer and vehicle. They weren't worried about that at all."

"Lamborghini did help with the base concept of how to convert to aluminum. and they provided some aesthetics of the outward part of the engine, how it looks. But the components we got from them, we ended up redesigning substantially to assure adequate durability. They weren't worried about 300 hours of dynamometer durability at wide-open throttle. That wasn't their concern. So, yes, they helped us with some directional issues, but in the end, none of their components lasted and were totally redesigned."

The Viper's engine program had now gone in opposite directions: too much truck-like torque and not enough rpm or power in the Ram engine, and in the Lamborghini execution there was too much rpm and not enough torque or reliability. The Viper eventually found its middle ground between Clydesdale and Thoroughbred By Team Viper's simply doing it themselves.

The frustrating relationship with Lamborghini aside, the bare engine block is a work of art. There is an Italian influence. Its massively deep-skirted design, with six-bolt main bearings, seems intended for racing. The block is unique in having an external water manifold to carry coolant to each cylinder individually. The thermostat was originally mounted at the back of the engine, so coolant hoses snaked over the engine to the radiator. The head casting was designed to provide a good swirl of the intake charge for efficient combustion to reduce emissions. At the bottom end, the Viper engine substituted a forged crankshaft with enlarged bearing journals for durability.

The weight-saving aluminum construction whacked 100 pounds off the original engine's weight compared to the cast-iron truck engine. But the engine weighed a still-hefty 716 pounds; 80 pounds more were trimmed for the 1996 GTS Coupe.

Anthony

[LateNightCable]

Whew, how long did it take you to type all that from the book?

I've looked through that book myself before.

The Viper V10 was very closely related to the truck program true, but they never set out to build a huge engine just for the Viper, in fact if it were'nt for the truck thing, they might have had nothing available except that 5.9 V8. I'm deffinitely sure that Dodge really needed a huge engine to make the Viper what it has become. 100hp./liter never would have happened, especially with 20 valves and a redline of about 6,000. Nowadays, Chrysler has all the resources of Mercedes to draw upon, and had the original Viper been developed now ( and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't ) , it could have been completely different. The Viper was truely a product of it's times. Chrysler was desperate for something back then, and had only a shoestring to work with.

It's V10 will never be a model of efficiency, the 5.0 Lambo V10 might qualify for that in a way, but I don't think the Viper has anything to apologize for as far as it's displacement goes, except perhaps environmentally. I wouldn't expect it to be around in 50 years like the Corvette though. The Vette probably won't be around then.

[Metfanant]

you are right, the truck engine came a long first, and it was pretty much a mistake the idea got thrown around for the Viper....i can see it now...couple guys from team Viper having lunch with a couple guys from the truck team, talking about engines...and one of the Viper guys says "wait, that truck engine has some potential! Why not put it in a damn car!?" and the rest is history. I think the Lamborghini engine would have worked wonders for the car but they were on such a short time frame it just wasnt possible to work with. I also think the car wouldnt have quite so much character as it does now. The car was designed to be a new Shelby Cobra(Rt/10) and the GTS was designed around the Shelby Daytona Coupe, and those cars were serious badass and the Viper needed to be just as much so....and when i hear 5.0L V10 that for sure doesnt sound as badass as 8.0L V10.....And i agree the 100hp/L mark back in the late 80's-early 90's wasnt very feesable for ANY road car let alone a 488 cubic inch monster, today it is doable(the Oreca built motors could see those kinds of power levels and more totally un restricted) but it would be VERY expensive and would for sure bump the price of the car over $100k USD and Chrysler does not want that. I just get all bent out of shape when people say "only 500hp from an 8.3L! that sucks" "(insert company here) gets (insert power level) out of an engine thats only (insert engine size), so the Viper must suck". Because they dont realize that the motor CAN make those power levels it just doesnt need to. with the 500hp its got on tap now it will beat anything in its price range and most of the cars above it. They also dont realize that the Viper motor is very "relaxed" at the current power levels it never really has to work very hard to get up and go, while a Honda S2000 has to rev to the sky to make those power levels, sacrificing torque and probably longevity. And pollution wise it east up lots of gas but its still pretty clean. it doesnt have any problems passing emmisions tests(the early ones could not be driven in California) as you could see from the excert from the book that they just needed an EGR system, and a CAT, while the truck guys needed all sorts of air pumps etc so the motor burns pretty damn clean for its size.

Anthony

[LateNightCable]

The fact that the Viper motor is very relaxed is a good point worth noting. Critics should realize that it works at nowhere near it's potential most of the time. Whereas the S2000 engine is squeezing out about as much as it can without busting a gut. Also, the layed back, low rpm charictor of the Viper V10 suits it's modern day Cobra image very well.

The severe under-tuning of the Viper allows for the kind of massive, and safe power upgrading that would not be possible with a lot of other cars. Besides, isn't this breed of car all about excess and large power reserves?

[bleh]

anthony, i like reading your posts, since your information is interesting and i dont want to be an ass, but its very hard when you dont form organized paragraphs.

anyway my reason for posting:

They also dont realize that the Viper motor is very "relaxed" at the current power levels it never really has to work very hard to get up and go, while a Honda S2000 has to rev to the sky to make those power levels, sacrificing torque and probably longevity.

so your saying that the viper motor will last longer? i understand your point but the application doesnt seem to be there.

[LateNightCable]

I tend to think that a Viper motor would indeed have a longer service life, providing it's well maintained of course, and not abused. It's certainly not overly stressed. Thats' not saying that the S2000's engine would go kaput quickly, I don't know, but it's a very highly strung engine with very hard working components. Although it is a Honda, so thats' a good thing going for it.

Anthony has written good posts, It would be nice if he were more involved. We could use some good level headed conversationalists around here again.

[Anzeige Amazon]

Hallo vertov,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema US Cars (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

 

Der V16 Motor zum Selberbauen (Anzeige) ist auch genial.

[bleh]

i was just getting at the finished thought: the s2000 motor is high strung but it is designed to be that way and it begs for more.

i agree with all your points though

[Metfanant]

anthony, i like reading your posts, since your information is interesting and i dont want to be an ass, but its very hard when you dont form organized paragraphs.

anyway my reason for posting:

so your saying that the viper motor will last longer? i understand your point but the application doesnt seem to be there.

Yeah, when i post on forums grammar usually goes totally out the window. When i get going, like I said earlier its more of a "stream of thought" type of deal. and the "....." and other nonsense is just what my fingers type while my brain is catching up lol.

Yes in theory the Viper engine will last longer. There are a few Viper guys that have over 100k miles on their cars and a bunch with 90+. The problem is most guys would never THINK to put those kinds of miles on their $80k+ sports car. The Viper is a VERY reliable car, you just dont get to see it because of a few reasons.

1)Most guys put like 2-4k miles per year on the car at ther MOST so it would take more than 20 years to see 100 thousand miles.

2) Suprizingly many Vipers are NOT bought as mid-life crisis garage queens. But are seriously tracked(both drag strip and road corse). So of course those cars are going to break.

Now about the Viper engine being more reliable than say an S2000. Of course one must take into account that on average Honda's quality control is of a higher quality than Chrysler's, BUT the CAAP facility(where the Vipers are assembled) is pretty top notch. Now to the physics of it. the S2000 uses a 2.2L inline-4 cylinder(used to a be a 2.0) and to make power the motor must be revved very high(9000rpm). Now this creates much more stress on the rotating assembly, and not to mention loads more heat. So, you say to yourself "Well, thats only when your revving the snot out of it." Unfortunatly it makes very little usable power as well. So when crusing around town, or merging onto highways etc. You need to rev the car to get it going. Now the Viper on the other hand makes PEAK torque in the 3000rpm range meaning, stuff like putting around toanw or mergeing onto highways is a cake walk. And the car does not need to be revved to the sky to do it.

Anthony

[Metfanant]

Anthony has written good posts, It would be nice if he were more involved. We could use some good level headed conversationalists around here again.

Thank you for the compliment.

Anthony

[bleh]

as far as acronyms, the "..." goes i totally understand. the ghetto typing is almost tolerable also(not accusing you but there are others). my only real complaint is a page of matterial that is massed into one glob of information, and thanks for accomodating me.

when it comes to revability its most definitely a matter of preference. but i understand your point entirely: what the intensions of what the viper is. it is very reliable. much more so than ferarris and as the narrative provided stated, more so than lamborghinis.

the reason lnc complimented you is because we are in lack of good, intelligent, and contributing company. that of which i have a tendancy to scare off. so while i may come to disagree, i enjoy learning from the narative you gave and welcome you to the forum.

EDIT: sorry if i sounded like a kiss ass

[skyline_r34v]

ASS KISSER!!!

[Metfanant]

as far as acronyms, the "..." goes i totally understand. the ghetto typing is almost tolerable also(not accusing you but there are others). my only real complaint is a page of matterial that is massed into one glob of information, and thanks for accomodating me.

when it comes to revability its most definitely a matter of preference. but i understand your point entirely: what the intensions of what the viper is. it is very reliable. much more so than ferarris and as the narrative provided stated, more so than lamborghinis.

the reason lnc complimented you is because we are in lack of good, intelligent, and contributing company. that of which i have a tendancy to scare off. so while i may come to disagree, i enjoy learning from the narative you gave and welcome you to the forum.

EDIT: sorry if i sounded like a kiss ass

Im all for a good civilized debate about automotive stuff, I LOVE IT. Although sometimes i do get a little heated when it comes to the subject of the Viper lol. So in anticipation of that happening in the future i apologize now incase i ever am an @$$h*le towards you personally. But thankfully I think you and I may get along just fine....

Anthony

[skyline_r34v]

It's quite alright, i've been a dickhead to a couple moderators and a bunch of homebodied posters. We're pretty much a "forum family" if u'll call it that and we don't take to many things to heart.

Plus it's the internet, if u givva shit wat sumbody thinks about u or says about u over the internet, then ur jus dumb to start with.

[thepolarfoxqx]

man, you just don't quit, lol.

[skyline_r34v]

Nope. BTW Welcome back to the forum's maybe it'll be more exciting around here. I'm spending 90% of my time at the 3gclub eclipse forums while i'm on the internet because these forums have gotten EXTREMELY boring.

[thepolarfoxqx]

did you know that mitsubishi motors is in serious financial trouble and has stated that unless they can resolve financial issues and partnerships, they may have to withdraw from the north american market?

Which is wierd, because I thought they were doing so well, with the good sales of Lancer, Endeavor, and Galant. What they need is a real diamante with power and some excitement - and a little added luxury, and they need to bring 3kgt back.

[skyline_r34v]

Yeah that's old news to me, that's why they had to lay off 3 factories and over 12,000 workers.

That sucks alot of ass but is , unfortunately, understandable.

I agree with the GTO's needing to be brought back but they (along with the turbo eclipses) didn't sell so well because a brand new GTO, not even fully equipped, costed the same as a brand new M3.

Not to many people are willing to pay $50,000 for a Mitsu, not me and i'm sure you're not willing to either.

I'm kind of worried about if this will affect the new 2006 Eclipse that's suppose to be made.

I've never really liked Diamantes so I could careless if they were ever made.

[thepolarfoxqx]

Mitsu is famous for being a turbo manufacturer and for their turbocharged cars. I think if they turbocharged their 3.8L engine, maybe gave it a set of DOHC heads like they did for evo, give it an AWD setup, they could have a car to give GS430, 540i, and 300C a run for their money. The V6 Eclipse may be soft when compared to the old turbo, but is much more usable, it is comfortable around town, has power reserves all over the rev range and is extremely driveable. Sure, a more rev happy and light weight, stiffer and more intense eclipse would be nice. If they could make a 3kgt for 30-35k to compete with G35 and RX-8, they could have something.

[skyline_r34v]

I'm afraid that the 2006 Eclipse is going to be a base $25,000. So turbocharging would make it around $29,000, then AWD would add around $8,000-$9,000, lighter materials being used would probably increase AS MUCH as $3,000 and DOHC would be included in turbo price; so you're looking at a base model Turbo 3.8L around $39,500.

You and I know if they deployed some of these "fancy" tactics, from Mitsu they would be considered fancy, then they would sky-rocket the price simply because they use them VERY rarely on their cars.

Although, they already have the concept as an AWD and the same about the transmission, engine and track-ready suspension so that could save on some extra spending money on the base model.

I don't see why they just don't follow up on how Ferrari's do on their F50's and such, well at least with weight-savings that is.

I don't see why don't they just use aluminum for weight-reduction, have a sturdy yet lightweigth frame and try to reduce the weight of that huge iron-block motor.

We all know that AWD increases weight dramatically so I don't see why they just don't employ these weight-saving idea's in order to counter-balance the weight that AWD will add. Using aluminum will get expensive but at least you'll be getting for what you paid for and not paying for Mitsu sky-rocketing their prices on materials they rarely use just because they don't use them that much.

Mitsu needs to realize that they need to stop being cheap asses and start actually making cars that are worth their money. If they didn't want to start making cars that are worth their money then they shouldn't have made the V6 Eclipse.

By making the V6 eclipse they were trying to imply, to the world, that they can make a performance engine that is also conservative and makes good gas mileage. They also wanted to imply that they can make a performance engine that's NA and still beat other Manufacturers.

Now making this new V6 Eclipse with 270hp making a statement that they will NOT be put in categories with slow ass cars like civic's, celica's and neon's; they have to actually come up with a car that's worthy of beating cars such as the 350Z, G35, 540i, etc etc.

So, in order to get serious with performance you have to start making your cars ALOT lighter, more aerodynamic, engine balanced, more powerful and alot of attention detailed towards the suspension.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the current eclipse is underpowered, overweight and has too soft of a suspension. It's not a bad car, but it will never compete with 350Z, RX-8, and 330Ci as long as it's front wheel drive. If they can make a turbocharged, all wheel drive, race suspensioned evo sub 3,000lbs and sub 30,000 dollars, they could add things like turbos, DOHC, and AWD to other model line cars without too much cost. I've yet to see anything post concept on the new eclipse anyhow. It's still uncertain exactly what will make it and how well everything will work. They used a V6 on eclipse because it was economical, reliable, and sold better than a 4 cylender engine. I really hope they use AWD if nothing else though.

[skyline_r34v]

the current eclipse is underpowered, overweight and has too soft of a suspension. It's not a bad car, but it will never compete with 350Z, RX-8, and 330Ci as long as it's front wheel drive. If they can make a turbocharged, all wheel drive, race suspensioned evo sub 3,000lbs and sub 30,000 dollars, they could add things like turbos, DOHC, and AWD to other model line cars without too much cost. I've yet to see anything post concept on the new eclipse anyhow. It's still uncertain exactly what will make it and how well everything will work. They used a V6 on eclipse because it was economical, reliable, and sold better than a 4 cylender engine. I really hope they use AWD if nothing else though.

The 6G72 V6 is nowhere near reliable compared to the 4G64 (I-4) in the Eclipses and it nowhere near sold as many. Economical was the word I was looking for. The 6G72 V6 was merely an economical solution to an upgraded performance engine but the 4G64 I-4 was way more reliable, better torque, responsive to boost and alot more forgivving in being abused. The 4G64 is Mitsu's trademark engine they've built for the 3g's.

I myself didn't choose in getting the V6 because I heard/found out that they were really weak unless you upgrade the internals ESPECIALLY when going super or turbo but with the 4G64 you could leave the stock internals in and it was able to handle 16psi with correct tuning. With the 6G72 it's not even able to hold 9psi with correct tuning.

I agree about the Evo but you have to understand that a fully loaded '04 Lancer is $15,500. So they basically paid nearly the same amount in performance upgrades than they did for the car itself.