The Truth

[GIR]

Tell me which ones? And what is alot? I mean most of their cars are natural, just the AMG models and some of the higher range use chargers... anywayz the cars that are not charged do a pretty damn good job at keeping up with BMW.

And from a stridieness and design point of view I'm sure the latest BMW's can't beat MB.

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[djfux69]

And from a stridieness and design point of view I'm sure the latest BMW's can't beat MB.

yes design wise, MB is a very sexy line of cars . where the new line of bmw is more bulky and cumbersome in design.

[Arty25]

Tell me which ones? And what is alot? I mean most of their cars are natural, just the AMG models and some of the higher range use chargers... anywayz the cars that are not charged do a pretty damn good job at keeping up with BMW.

And from a stridieness and design point of view I'm sure the latest BMW's can't beat MB.

i believe that the m series cars look alot better than there mb counterpart but im not saing that all mbs are ugly because there are plenty of nice mb around

[thepolarfoxqx]

some people like the highly tuned engines.

a lot.

feel the engine come to life as it winds up, it's a cool feeling. And BMW engines are rock solid.

mercedes makes solid and comfortable cars, if i wanted a comfortable car, i'd most likely find myself in a benz (well, probably a jaguar, but a benz would really be close).

I respect them, but i just like the highly tuned screamer engines.

[GIR]

Exactly what Fox said and with that note I'm signing off this thread cause it's going nowhere anywayz.

[Arty25]

too much heat GIR

[NeoAnderson84]

More like lack of heat, nobodys really got any point here its just opinionated, and heresay in place of facts. Besides the C43 i do believe was natural and it had more power than the m3. Unfair? the c36 had more power too. Mercedes has shown they can make a NA engine, especially v12s its just not important anymore, lets see BMW compete in the diesel market, thats the big step. The future of cars is gonna head there with this gobbledegook about clean air, and the tree hugging epidemic.

[kleinefisch]

Actually, hydrogen is probably the future, as its not a fossil fuel. And for that, BMW already has a prototype 7 series that runs on hydrogen.

And how can we be objective with facts when the title of the thread is "The Truth"? The BMW - MB disputes will never be settled. Its like the Palestinian - Isreali conflict. We just need to keep our heads about us.

[NeoAnderson84]

good point fisch, but i disagree hydrogen really wont be an issue till like deep future i think, not enough pull to make anyone happy. i was thinking more like near future. im not sure were u agreeing with me on the facts and heresay and what have you, that would be 2 things you backed me up on

[thepolarfoxqx]

the issue with hydrogen is this, it takes tiwce as much energy to refine it as you can get out by burning it. And BMW makes some amazing diesels, they more than just compete in the diesel market.

And you don't considder antying a point unless it's one of 3 on a star.

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[NeoAnderson84]

i am appalled that you infer i am as narrow minded as you just showed you are.bmw doesnt have as cool a diesel as the new MB V8 is more or less the main target therre, and mercedes diesels have been revered all up and down the auto world, my dad has one with 766'000 miles on it for instance. and i dont think they plan on competing at least in the american market, that i know, but MB has plans to release several diesels herrre, my other point with that statement. i could be wrong but i think the MB V8 diesel is the coolest engine of its kind aroond. and hey u agreed with me on the hydrogen thing didnt you? awww you didnt need to do that.i guess you countered it with cheap commentary,a blatant personal attack . see we can diss eachother and keep it civilized, how come nobody else can ?

[thepolarfoxqx]

BMW's inline six diesel is more potent than it's benz equivalent. Benz may have a larger line of diesels, and sell more, but BMW's diesels are well revered, they are popular, and work very well, and do show the same level of refinement in engineering as all bmw engines.

They have never been popular in north america, but they are big in europe. Ask anyone who has one, the 330d rocks.

[NeoAnderson84]

you like that word equivalent dont you? right the BMW six may be kool, but the MB 8 is better, and u said it they sell more diesels, reinstating my point that they arent competing, but hey you didnt diss me finally, so lets leave it at the BMW six is better than the benz six but they dont have a 8 (or do they) MB's is better anyhow.

[thepolarfoxqx]

no, you are right, to my knowledge, BMW doesn't do a diesel. i fail to see the purpose of a high performance diesel, but whatever.

[Dresol]

you like that word equivalent dont you? right the BMW six may be kool, but the MB 8 is better, and u said it they sell more diesels, reinstating my point that they arent competing, but hey you didnt diss me finally, so lets leave it at the BMW six is better than the benz six but they dont have a 8 (or do they) MB's is better anyhow.

Well, I just wanted to say that BMW's common-rail diesel engines has won a lot of prices this year, while Mercedes hasn't gotten one price. The BMW's V8 engine has more power and torque than Mercedes' engines. Mercedes makes fine engines, but there is a reason why Vauxhall (Opel is more common) buys BMW's engines for their models, such as Signum, Astra and so on.

[daugbjerg]

BMW Diesels engines in Europe :

150hp 2.0-litre four

184hp 2.5-litre straight-six

218hp 3.0-litre straight-six

258hp 3.9-litre V8

The four pot and the straight-six have just been updated and are really great engines. I don't know anout the V8.

[kleinefisch]

Wherever I read the news of a Hydrogen 7 (I think it was the 745H), it said

that the performance was very close to the gasoline powered model. I know that hydrogen isn't practical, yet. The area of alternate forms of energy is rapidly expanding.

[LateNightCable]

BMW is a leader in the drive for alternative fuels. And I don't think it's entirely about looking good commercially either, unlike the GM EV-1 joke. When we have driver's cars with zero emissions, BMW will be among the first to do it .

* BMW 750hL...

[kleinefisch]

Wow, I didn't know that this idea had been floating around for that long.

This is what I remember, like it makes a difference.

[GIR]

Well the BMW 740h is the first hydrogen powered production car, I have to hand it to you guyz (yes if BMW would take the orders they could supply you with a 740h rightnow) but MB and Mazda have been working on alternative fuels way longer then BMW. Mazda has some impressive tech when it comes to cold storage, way smaller then the BMW cryocell.

And MB is big on fuelcells. Although hydrogen is the way of the future, fuelcells are a good alternative untill the infrastructure is in place for hydrogen and all the technicality is sorted out.

Hydrogen isn't something you could call "Clean Energy" rightnow. The refining process still requires massive amounts of energy and that energy comes from, among others, fossil fuel powerplants. Like fox said to energy needed to refine it does not match up to the energy you get out of it.

[LateNightCable]

Yeah, MB cares about alternative fuels and keeping our natural environment healthy. Thats' why we always hear about their ever expanding gas engines with twin turbos like it's great news, and never about their alternative fuel efforts.

[GIR]

Well they also were the first to meet the 2007 required EU emmision standards, yes even the S65 meets that standard. They did pioneer the particle filter for diesel engines, which made diesel engines envoiremental friendlier then gasoline engines. They did pioneer the catalysator and improved versions of it like the highflow catalysator which allows you to have a catalysator and a decent flow of exhaust gasses, altough the sound is horrible. They did pioneer allkinds of new techniques to reduce fuelconsumption and/or emmision.

Fuel consumption of MB and BMW is almost on par but the CO2 emmision of MB cars is lower then any other manufacturer in the world.

Don't be fooled. BMW might have the sportiest cars but when it comes to developing and pioneering new tech MB always has the lead and that is a thing nobody seems to appriciate.

[thepolarfoxqx]

BMW debuted gas direct injection on a production car, which dropped emmissions and fuel consumption by over 25% each. Look at S600 against 760Li, the gas direct injection is a huge step forward, MB doesn't have it. They both innovate quite a bit. Anyhow, some people (looks around nervously) will remove catlysts and such devices from their cars.

My 318i runs without a cat or an evap canister.

[GIR]

Uum direct injection wasn't invented nor poineered by BMW. The theory and concept model for it was around longer before they decided to work on it btw. For years everybody in the industry theorized about GDI engines. Everybody agreed on that if they could build a gasoline engine that works like a diesel, highly combustable mixture right near the cylinderhead, they could get the mileage of a diesel while still keeping the performance characterisitics of a gasoline engine. Everybody said they would be injecting the fuel directly into the cylinder and a highly combustable mixture near the sparkplug and that would be the ultimate mix between gasoline and diesel engines.

Mithsubishi and Citroen both claim they were the first with GDI engines... but they weren't and neither was BMW. In 1931 some guy from Germany (don't remember who) made a car called "Goliath" which in 1950 was upgraded with a primitive GDI engine, The Goliath GP. Here is a picture of a 1951 Goliath GP 700 Sport Coupe.

In 1996 the car industry seriously started to work on GDI engines. GDI engines were available in the EU long before they were introduced in the US and BMW was the first to debute it on the US market after which Rolls Royce and Isuzu followed.

25% isn't that much because the initial reports back in 1996 already said they could get 30% less fuel consumption and emmision while getting more torque out the engine. I don't know how far the tech has come since then but I'm sure they raised that 30% bar a little higher.

C'mon now. BMW builds great road cars and all, but one thing they do not do is come up with radical new ideas and work them out into the details. That's MB's job. Maybe there are some examples on stuff they did, but I'm sure it is not on the level of MB.

Oh yeah and about the catlyst, the MB Highflow catlyst does perform pretty well. But totaly destroys the sound which is another point of complaint. The sound that comes out those MB exhausts... I don't know but it's just not brutal enough. Having no catlyst can fix that however

I don't know about the US but over here it's just too much of a hassle to take it off. You have to mount it back on every year for the anual inspection. pain in the arse to say the least.

Also as a final note I'd like to say this. It's amazing nobody mentions that"

1. The Fiat Multijet diesel engines and OUR FFRS engines for trucks are way more advanced and perform way beter then anything MB or BMW made.

2. The MB Supercharged V8 has won the most prestigeus award in the industry this year.

http://www.carpassion.com/en/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697

So anywayz I'm supposed to be off this thread, be bye

[thepolarfoxqx]

pennsylvania emmissions inspects, but minnesota does not, guess where the BMW lives?

BMW didn't invent it, i know that, but they were the first to put it in good working order into a production car. They don't come up with radical and divirgent ideas, but they make them work and get with them first to market, and that counts a lot.

The hydrogen car is pretty revolutionary.

And i'm yet to hear a nice mercedes exhaust not (of late), they all sound itchy.