The Truth

[Arty25]

The truth is that Mercedes has been supercharging trying to beat the comp like BMW and Audi, Mb cant make a fast car with out charging it, the only way they get 992lbft or 600 hp is with there huge turbocharged engines, I believe that MB is all bolt-on. They are the daewoo of the auto world. Some people will get mad about this forum, but all I have to say is the truth hurts. Thats my two cents

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Hallo Arty25,

 

kennst du schon The Truth (Anzeige)? Dort ist vieles zu finden.

 

Mercedes Ersatzteile (Anzeige) | Mercedes Zubehör (Anzeige)

[Thunf]

"The truth is that Mercedes has been supercharging trying to beat the comp like BMW and Audi"

-Well, who is Mercedes then?

[GIR]

Funny cause MB has anounced that they will be dropping chargers in the future.

Anywayz don't underestimate the charged engines MB makes. Chargers are known to be unreliable. Over the past few years MB has proven that you can have a charger and a reliable engine that has a long life span. The charged engines MB makes are not like, lets say, the engines Honda makes which blowup after a few thousand miles.

Even though MB has chargers they have the calmest and quietest engines in the world. I think you really need to realize that MB is not sport, MB is luxury cruiser. To be honest those cars do feel great.

[thepolarfoxqx]

welll, we have conflicting reports on the future of MB engines.

And Mercedes is about engines that feel powerful and effortless, typically that isn't a characteristic of highly tweaked motors. Using superchargers and turbos, which MB has done flawlessly, allows their engines to retain the merc feel with more power. Merc does not have sporiness or efficiency as a number one prioritiy, they are great crusiers for people with excess, and they fulfill that mission in ways other manufacturers could only dream of doing (caugh, lexus)

[Kevin321]

Thankyou for the great post Arty.

[raptor75104]

Arty, you do indeed have two wonderful cars, one being extremely rare on our shores (assuming you are, in fact, on our shores).

I'd say that your likening Mercedes to Daewoo is awful harsh. Mercedes is not trying to be BMW, just to compete. I wonder if they aren't trying to be too many things to too many people. Still, if you had an automotive company that made "grapefruits" and was constantly being compared to a company that made "limes" what would you do? Be competetive (sp?), or tell them to take a flying leap? That's a lot of recognition and commercialism that they need. Everyone does. In addition, wouldn't you try to expand your market share? Hit as many people as you could: Sell as many cars as you could?

Mercedes, while not the "carved from a single billet" cars they used to be, are still excellent. And they do well what they're meant to do. I did worry at the time of the merger what would happen to their quality control and they have definitely had some slips to say the least. But they're working on it. The reality is that business is business. And that "cost control" and "quality control" are tough to put in the same sentence. BMWs are definitely not perfect. It's blatantly apparent that they spend the majority of their money on the "7". Look how lavish it is. The "3" couldn't hope to compare in terms of perception of quality. Since you have a Nissan and so do I, I'll cite them as well for the cheesy use of plastics in the Altima. I test drove one and when I shifted into "D" the whole console jiggled. Terrible. I'll keep my 2000 model year Nissans, thank you very much. We have Renault to thank for that. But by the same token, Nissan/Infiniti have been launching a whole host of new products, most of which I find aesthetically pleasing with great "punch."

The bottom line is that nobody's perfect, and that's MY two cents. Daewoos were absurd, bordering on insulting, clear across the line. No power, no aesthetics, no quality. How ANY sold is beyond me.

Raptor.

[LateNightCable]

The 3-Series is BMW's biggest money maker - in that respect, I doubt the 7-Series compares. I agree that they should put more content into it for less money. But when you are a big company, and you can sell a lot of something, as in the case of the 3-Series, you are going to be tempted to try and get as much profit as you can, with as little output as possible. Not cool though, especially for a bread and butter car.

When Daimler and Chrysler got together, Mercedes was very possesive about their image. They were alright about letting Chrysler use certain parts and things, but they insisted that Mercedes engines and platforms be reserved only for Mercedes-Benz cars. Well, that didn't work because now we have the Chrysler Crossfire, based on a Mercedes platform and equipped with a Mercedes engine. Mercedes is going backwards, while Chrysler is comeing up in the world. Perhaps thats' the biggest irony of all in that situation.

Mercedes can try to protect itself from being " cheapend " by Chrysler, but thats' like a guy refusing to sleep with his wife because she cramps his style. You get married, things are bound to be shared - like platforms and engines.

Speaking of Daewoo, when I heard they were coming over to sell in the U.S., I would have bet that they were going to flunk out, and they did - big time. They tried to target young people, but they didn't realize that, if young people have 8 grand to spend on a car, they aren't going to buy a crap car with no features, just because it's new. The people who bought them, did so because they wanted a " new " car, and they were hooked into a very attractive payment plan. I visited a Daewoo dealer once, and the chrome finish was peeling off of the grill on a brand new car on the showroom floor! Be careful, because GM, which owns 42% of Daewoo now, as GM Daewoo, wants to sell that crap in America again, rebadged as Suzukis' or something.

[thepolarfoxqx]

BMW is indapendant, and does not share parts, that's a lot of what you pay for in a bimmer. You'll never open the hood of your bimmer and find a part with a chrysler star or ford oval on it. 3 is an institution, and for decades, was it's own segment, and 3 alone more or less caries BMW. Mercedes, for decades, had build quality as its biggest selling point. I don't think they should have so hastily abandoned it.

[NeoAnderson84]

doesnt BMW use getrag trannnys, same as FORD and CHEVY??? I mean, if we're going to liken Daewoo to Mercedes. Just showing the other side

[thepolarfoxqx]

Actually, the 3 and 5 series six cylender cars use a ZF Type H Manual, The 545i uses a ZF Type G, ZF by the way, makes the manuals for Mercedes. The M3 and M5 use the Getrag Type D-226 manual transmission, which costs as much as some fords and chevys. Getrag's trannies are widely regaurded as the best. No chevrolet uses one actually. A cadillac CTS manual uses the Getrag 260 (which dates back 2 decades), and is one of the slickest shifting trannies around. IT uses this, as CTS's entire driveline is out of the OPEL parts bin. Ford doesn't use it either. They use the Getrag 221 in the Lincoln LS, but the lincoln LS's driveline comes out of Jaguar's parts bin. I'm sure you knew that though right?

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Hallo Arty25,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema Zubehör für Mercedes (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

 

Auch interessant: Der V16 Motor zum Selberbauen (Anzeige).

[Arty25]

well kevin what the hell do u have to say about the topic

[raptor75104]

I found a lot of polar's info interesting. Mercedes manuals suck hind tit. Always have. At best they're rubbery, at worst they're obstinate. Definitely shows where they've put their development money. NOT in improving their manuals. But manual sales have never warranted it. Anyway, they're durable, but no fun at all. Been there, got the t-shirt.

Forgive me for correcting the moderator, but the Lincoln LS is not pulled from the Jag bin. In order, the Ford Mondeo was the original. The platform was, to my understanding made with sharing in mind, but the Mondeo was the first to use it. Then there was the Lincoln LS (a mediocre car at best despite decent handling characteristics), then there was the Jag X-type. The LS and the X use basically the same engine built with core Ford parts and topped off and tuned by the individual makers. The X-type gets very mixed reviews. Satisfactory at best, worst car Jag has put out at worst. I wouldn't spend a dime on the lot. Trash.

I'm glad that we agree that paying for a name and getting short-changed in the quality department is a crap-ass deal regardless of who made it.

Raptor

[NeoAnderson84]

Jesus dude, the point was any car can be likened to any other hell, i didnt want a lecture on every transmission ever used in a car alphabetically and every serial number ever used cited. A yes or no would have sufficed. No i didnt know that, i didnt care. yea mercedes manuals suck, but fortunately their autos shift faster than 95 percent of the population

[Kevin321]

What Arty has posted may be sad for SOME of you, but it is

very true.

[GIR]

Jesus dude, the point was any car can be likened to any other hell, i didnt want a lecture on every transmission ever used in a car alphabetically and every serial number ever used cited. A yes or no would have sufficed. No i didnt know that, i didnt care. yea mercedes manuals suck, but fortunately their autos shift faster than 95 percent of the population

The point is that Getrag has the best transmissions around and almost everybody in Europe has been using them for ages now. With mergers and buyouts the US manufacturers are also starting to see how good the Getrag transmissions are.

Building a good trnasmissions isn't easy. You have to have the right equipment and people. Rather then invest in this lots of EU manufacturers outsource their transmissions and so does BMW. If somebody is offering a good transmission for a good sum, a sum you couldn't do it for, why not buy it? And that is the only reason why everybody in Europe uses Getrag transmissions. They're top notch and also very cheap. BMW, VW, Opel or Ford couldn't build the same transmission for the same money.

Getrags trackrecord just proves it. They can be found in any car from low to high end.

What Arty has posted may be sad for SOME of you, but it is very true.

Care to tell us why?

[NeoAnderson84]

right, but my guy was saying that BMW is independent doesnt share parts, no car company is independent, they all share something. Bosch makes fuel injection for just about everybody. oh yeah, and theres the mclaren, been talked about, also sharing the BMW engine. wait were you telling me wha my point was?

[GIR]

This is about BMW making their own engines and parts, not about McLaren buying an engine from BMW.

Funny you should mention Bosch cause BMW AG owns a part of Bosch AG. And ofcourse lets not forget about VDO which makes all the plastic parts in the car. VDO is good at pressing plastic, so why should BMW start anothr division for plastic? Bosch is good at making electronics and uC's, so why should BMW start their own division pure for electronics? Both companies can do it cheaper and better then BMW so why should BMW do it themselves?

Both companies make parts according to BMW's specifications, so wether BMW does it themselves or hires someone to do it for them doesn't mater much. The end product is the same.

What you are trying to say and what Fox is trying to say are 2 different things. What Fox said was that BMW independently makes their own engines without any outside influence and without any mother company trying to force stuff onto them like Lambo and Jaguar. What you are saying is that BMW outsources some of their parts.

Yes BMW may outsource their parts but in the end the complete engine has been designed, made and put together in their workshops.

[NeoAnderson84]

mercedes makes their own engines and parts as well bmw does just about the same thing. i didnt say theres anything wrong with it, however, here you are, getting defensive...

Rather than mercedes selling their engine to chrysler, they bought the company and put their superior engines in fairly crappy cars.

[GIR]

I wasn't getting defensive, I was just clearing up the facts. Like you and Fox were misunderstanding each other. From the agressive tone in your posts I would say you are the one getting defensive.

Actually the Daimler-Chrysler thing wasn't a buy out but a merger. Now it seems MB should've waited a while and bought out Chrysler cause Chrysler is causing them mayor losses.

One of the main reasons for the merger was for MB to get a foothold in the US market and for Crysler to get a foothold in the EU market.

The ML class is the only class that's not being buildt on EU soil, it's completely buildt in the US. The ML class is also the car which has had the most recalls of a MB car ever. From simple things to plastic parts breaking of to mayor things like parts of the powersteering breaking off, the ML class has seen it all.

The MBUSA division is entirely supervised by the former Chrysler managment.

The S & CL classes are still being buildt and assembeld in Germany because Daimler wanted their own quality checks on these lines. The rest are not. Well actually the parts are being buildt in germany and then shipped over to the US where the cars are assembeld and painted. Logistic and tax wise this is the smartest thing todo.

What we are seeing is that in the US people are complaining about body panels not fitting correctly and stuff like that. I haven't seen anybody in the EU complain about things like that and it came as a shock to me when I first saw it.

Also MB has allowed Chrysler to contaminate their cars. Just look at the interiour of the all the MB's. They're all the same and they're all butt ugly. Plastic cupholder, plastic door handles, plastic this, plastic that. When you buy a expensive classy car like the S class you would expect to be seperated from a C class buyer, get something more and better. But you get the exact goddamn same interiour. The exact same options that are on the S class are on the C class aswell, except on the S class they're standard and on the C they're optional.

That isn't the MB way. When I was growing up my father had several MB's and all of them had awesome interiours. Everything was nice, beatifull, smooth and most of all strong. Those cars were cut out of a solid block. There was nothing those cars couldn't handle.

These days everything has been compromised for production sake. If it's cheap and fast to produce (which is the American way of producing) then it's in there.

Don't get me wrong. I still love MB the cars they build are still among the luxurious and relaxing cars to drive. Something most people won't understand untill they drive on one. their engine's might not have the natural aspiration BMW has but who in their right mind would want to race with a 2 ton monster? For the weight they have those engine do perform impresively. Most people don't understand that the reason why AMG uses superchargers is because those cars are so damn heavy. They need more lowend torque to get them off the ground, it's just simple physics. But for a car that heavy they still do handle very very well and are a pleasure to drive in heavy city traffic.

First thing they need todo, and we've already gotten a sneak preview of this on the CLS, is change their interiour to something more MB. When I ordered my S i wanted this interiour:

But for that I had to pay 24k euro extra for the designo people and wait an aditional 6 weeks. Something hardly worth it so I ordered everything in antracite black. But you should see some of the other cars.. damn they had ugly interiours.

The current line of MB engines is over 12 years old and MB hasn't shown much interest in redesigning them. BMW does constantly redesign and reevaluate their engines. MB will be putting out a new line of engines somewhere in 2005/2006 which I guess is going to last another 15 years.

[thepolarfoxqx]

Going back to raptor, sorry to correct you, but the LS is built on the Ford Universal DEW-Lite platform, which was introduced on the Jaguar S-Type. The suspension and chasis, as well as most of the parts for LS come from S-Types parts bin. Ford Mondeo shares parts with Jag X-Type, but not S or Lincoln LS. Lincoln LS is rear drive and uses a longitudinal layout. Mondeo is front/AWD and uses a transversal layout. The engines, transmissions, suspensions, while all tuned by Ford North America, came from the Jaguar parts bin. In fact, did you know the first Ford Thunderbirds (for 2002 forward) were built in coventry, england by Jaguar?

And when i said parts sharing, I mean that you will never see the same door handle or shifter in a BMW as any other car. The original Lexus ES250 and LS400 had doorhandles out of camry. It was sad. Some companies, nissan worst of all still use unchanged parts between nissan and infini brands. Mercedes is coming closer and closer to parts sharing going actively both ways with Chrysler. My Jaguar has parts under the hood that are very much ford. I don't like that. BMW has NO part sharing of that type. They don't develop EVERYTHING in house, or try to. They use ZF automatic transmissions and steering racks, and to be honest, ZF makes the worlds best steering, and best, if not a tie for best with merc. for best automatics. The Siemens control unit used on the six cylender BMWs isn't used by many other people.

And chrysler supervising final assembly on Mercedes, no wonder quality has gone down hill. You don't pay mercedes' premium to get Chrysler's quality.

[NeoAnderson84]

it was a buyout, chrysler was in trouble, Daimler Benz came and bought them for $36 mil. the company ID'd it as a merger simply because 2 companies were now 1

plastic is in al cars, lots of plastic, every car. thats just how it goes, and as far as how something looks, its based on opinion. i like mercedes interior. so did cadillac, thats why they took the shifter design.

and there u go backstepping, now mercedes isnt part sharing, theyre just getting close, technically, the crossfire is a mercedes but in order to easily sell it in the us it has a chrysler brand on it, means absolutely nothing. they were going to do it with a van too, i dunno if they will, doesnt interest me.the only point i was making, no car is independent, and since Mercedes did buy Chrysler, it merged after they bought it basically, anything chrysler is the same company, as mercedes. To be completely honest though, i wouldnt buy ANY new car. Mercedes had two peaks: the 50's and the early/mid 90's. the 124, 129, and 140 chassis' were the coolest and best built, and had real cool engines, my 6 cylinder sounds like a v8, scares hondas and junk. Ahh and moreover mercedes changed the V12 like 5 times between 92 and 2000, the 6 cylinder has been changed more like 10 times between 86 and 04, the v8 many many times as well, again not my main interest. And i dont like BMW of any era, they have always been looked at as the underdog to Mercedes. Never have tey been as successful

[Kevin321]

What I mean is that mercedes is at about the same level as daewoo,

some of you may disagree, but I just got done reading Car and Driver

and the new sl55amg is going to be a twinturbo 6.0 litre v12, that only

makes 610hp pretty sad for a twin turbo v12 dont you think? My point

is that they can not make a very good car, that is why Arty compared MB to daewoo. hope that makes sense.

[kleinefisch]

The S & CL classes are still being buildt and assembeld in Germany because Daimler wanted their own quality checks on these lines. The rest are not. Well actually the parts are being buildt in germany and then shipped over to the US where the cars are assembeld and painted. Logistic and tax wise this is the smartest thing todo.

Unless you take European delivery, which is the way to go. They pay for a bunch of stuff, like hotels, etc. (not many nights though). Then you ship the car back to the States. In the end, its a better deal too. You get a German quality German car, get to autobahn it, can see Europe, avoid taxes legally (which is like a passtime for me), and in the end, the car cost you less money than if you just bought it at your local dealer.

[NeoAnderson84]

if they cant make a very good car why does everyone keep buying them, making Mercedes the most valuable auto brand? no, twin turbo V12 for under 200K at 610 hp not bad, i dont think, even tho a SL55 is not a v12... an Enzo isnt turbo and it doesnt have much more, with lots less torque, actually i think the car is slower than the new sl will be, and it costs 650?

from what i can tell, kevin, you arent none too bright or perceptive anyhow. Id love to see a daewoo sell for 125 K since theyre the same level and all, BTW do u have a car kevin?

[LateNightCable]

" Everyone " does not buy Mercedes, a whole lot of us buy BMW. And in what way do you mean Mercedes is the " most valuable "? If you mean they are really expensive you got that right. Of course a Mercedes is going to look like it's holding good value - if it cost 10-15 thousand more than the competiton :roll: .

Neo, you're trying to come across as even minded, but underneith that, you're showing a superiority complex. Holding one's chosen marque in high esteem is one thing, but you are trying to find reasons to degrade other cars.