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imported_felix

Murcielago or Gallardo?

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GIR
Geschrieben

I wouldn't go as far as generalizing all German car makers, just VW. I think Bush should add VW to his "axis of evil" list, it was founded by Hitler himself.

BMW still has superior enginering under the hood, too bad they let Bangle ruine the design.

MB is trying to find a centerpoint between US and EU markets while maintaining the US way of carbuilding (cheap, fast and in mass) which I think they should stop doing and go back to the old MB. The W1xx models were the last of the true MB cars.

VW is just pure evil! I say invade Germany and overthrow the VW board of directors!

Parts for the Diablo had to meet strict quiality guidelines and were inspected properly before they were shipped out. I wonder if that goes for the S6 parts aswell. Anywayz imagine dishing out a huge sum for a Lambo, opening the hood and seeing the Audi logo all over the place. You might aswell just buy an Audi S6 and get it over with.

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imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben
I wouldn't go as far as generalizing all German car makers, just VW. I think Bush should add VW to his "axis of evil" list, it was founded by Hitler himself.

BMW still has superior enginering under the hood, too bad they let Bangle ruine the design.

MB is trying to find a centerpoint between US and EU markets while maintaining the US way of carbuilding (cheap, fast and in masses) which I think they should stop doing and go back to the old MB. The W1xx models were the last of the true MB cars.

VW is just pure evil! I say invade Germany and overthrow the VW board of directors!

Parts for the Diablo had to meet strict quiality guidelines and were inspected properly before they shipped them out. I wonder if that goes for the S6 parts aswell. Anywayz imagine dishing out a huge sum for a Lambo, opening the hood and seeing the Audi logo all over the place. You might aswell just buy an Audi S6 and get it over with.

It's true of all German car makers. The new Bentley - W12 engine from Phaeton(?), interior workings from VW cars, electronics from VW, I'm not sure about assembly, but I'm sure part is done in Germany. Rolls-Royce - BMW 7-series engine, BMW electronics, engineering, interior, and parts from Germany, part assembled in Germany. There's a pattern here...

Bangle's designs are rubbish, I agree totally!

I have no problem with them meeting strict quality standards - that's a good thing. But why not bespoke parts? Why not a Lambo engine?

GIR
Geschrieben

I don't mind the BMW engine in the Rolls. As far as I know BMW didn't mess too much with the Rolls-Royce production process. A Rolls was never ment for fast driving or to be driven by yourself (most of the time there's a chaufeur behind the wheel). It has been all about exclusive, handcrafted, comfortable, unique and smooth cars. Nobody makes smoother engines then BMW, the outdated Rolls engines were due for a redesign and what better way then using the BMW engines?

VW did mess with Bentely though. They changed just about everything there is to be changed. Even more so that they shut down a plant and built a new one. Those W engines VW has are starting to get on my nerves, just look at that quad turbo W16 in the Veyron. Pathetic to say the least.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben
I don't mind the BMW engine in the Rolls. As far as I know BMW didn't mess too much with the Rolls-Royce production process. A Rolls was never ment for fast driving or to be driven by yourself (most of the time there's a chaufeur behind the wheel). It has been all about exclusive, handcrafted, comfortable, unique and smooth cars. Nobody makes smoother engines then BMW, the outdated Rolls engines were due for a redesign and what better way then using the BMW engines?

VW did mess with Bentely though. They changed just about everything there is to be changed. Even more so that they shut down a plant and built a new one. Those W engines VW has are starting to get on my nerves, just look at that quad turbo W16 in the Veyron. Pathetic to say the least.

BMW has messed quite a lot with the building process. The bodies are made in Germany and taken to the R-R factory for final fitting (interior n' the rest). Why not create a new Rolls engine? Would you pay £1/4 million for a BMW engine? Other parts of the car belonging to BMW are electronics, dashboard controls, I-Drive, steering rack. Overall, I'd say 40% or so of the R-R is BMW. As far as I can tell, VW have done almost the same tinkering with the Bentley too.

Rolls was always about special hand-crafted luxury. Now it's more un-packing boxes of German bits and sticking them in the right place, in accordance with a German build manual.

To be a true car, it has to be almost completely bespoke, hand-crafted, designed by the manufacturer or another fellow countryman and the rest. This is what I mean by Lambo losing its way too.

Back to the old format please - no electronic driver aids, bespoke parts, in-house engine. Wishful thinking, though.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

Ok, my thoughts are this. The BMW 5.4L SOHC V12 was greatest thing to happen for Rolls and bentley, because let's be honest, the 6.75L rolls V8 is antiquated beyond belief. An old 2V Pushrod engine that was never that stellar, Bentley shouldn't be using the old 6.75 V8, for 200,000+ USD, you should get better. I don't like them using the 6.0L W16 VW unit, but then again the continental GT is a totally VW car. BMW did do a good job when laying out the suspension geometry for the 7 series, so I can see it justified to share it with the Phantom. Atleas they made their V12 bigger and retuned it. I'd love a totally originally built car, but it won't happen with a corperate owner. Maybach is just a glorified S600, which bugs me.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

This is what I mean when I say that old models are great in these often dry times, there are so many take overs these days, it's hard to find anything new that is as pure as cars of the past. I would much rather have a Bentley Continental T than a " Continental GT " which did not come from the mind of an Englishman.

As for the old 6.75 liter V-8, it's not the most advanced engine in the world, but I don't believe anyone buying a Bentley really gives a damn, I wouldn't. It's an old style torque monster and people love it, 650 lbs. of torque at 2,200 rpm. where else do you get that? Thats' why the Arnage wasn't really hot until they dumped in the old engine and called it Red Label, because thats what buyers really wanted.

Anyway, as for the Murcielago or Gallardo question, I'll pick the Murci, just because it has a V-12 and a better looking butt.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben
This is what I mean when I say that old models are great in these often dry times, there are so many take overs these days, it's hard to find anything new that is as pure as cars of the past. I would much rather have a Bentley Continental T than a " Continental GT " which did not come from the mind of an Englishman.

As for the old 6.75 liter V-8, it's not the most advanced engine in the world, but I don't believe anyone buying a Bentley really gives a damn, I wouldn't. It's an old style torque monster and people love it, 650 lbs. of torque at 2,200 rpm. where else do you get that? Thats' why the Arnage wasn't really hot until they dumped in the old engine and called it Red Label, because thats what buyers really wanted.

Anyway, as for the Murcielago or Gallardo question, I'll pick the Murci, just because it has a V-12 and a better looking butt.

None of the new British cars come from the mind of a Brit.

The 6 3/4 litre engine is legendary. It doesn't matter that the engine is old - look at the Aston V8 by Tadek Marek, that served the V8 models for 30-odd years, right up to the storming 600 BHP Vantage version. You're right about the green label, it was powered by a BMW engine, and so people lost faith in it's Britishness. I wonder if this will be the case with the new Bentley and Rolls (I hope so, as it might convince them not to mess with the integrity of the cars in future)? Besides, in a car weighing over two tonnes, you need a 6.75 litre engine to get anywhere quickly. No one should never mistake old for crap.

Do you really think the Murc has the better arse? It looks tidier, but Lambos have always been about daring styling, and for me the Murc is just too conservative for a Lamborghini.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

I agree that the Murcielago is pretty straight laced for a Lamborghini, but the Gallardo seems scrunched looking, in the manner of the BMW Z4, as if they attempted to cram a wild design within a limited amount of space.

But of any Lamborghini, I would choose a Diablo 6.0 SE, and you can still buy those brand new at quite a bit of savings!

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

brand new? don't worry, lambo always makes good money. I've heard of it costing $20,000 to do a clutch job on a diablo (if you've seen a technical diagram of how the engine and tranny sit, you'd see why). I like 6.0 too.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Yes, brand new, evidently they're still some sitting around in showrooms waiting for a home. Have you looked through The Dupont Registry?

I think it would probably cost a lot less for a clutch job if you had your own private mechanic, if you can afford that clutch you might as well sign one on part time.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i like working on my own cars too much to take on a private mechanic. I don't do much work on the boxster because it is a royal pain in the ass. As to where you can get 600+ ft/lbs of torque at 2,200, how about a mercedes benz type 12. Talk about high tech, that beast has 24 ignition coils.

you can move that heavy of a car with less than the 6.75, and the old 6.75 was not as smooth as newer engines. The greatest aston martins were those powered by the supercharged inline sixes (atleast, to me), if you complain about not being british enough, guess, just guess where that 5.9L V12 came from. Ford. Ford developed a concept V12 in 1996 composed of two duratech V6 engines, each of a little less than 3.0L put end to end. It turns out that that worked pretty well. The archetecture between the two approaches identical. When you see the aston V12, it is very similar to twin taurus motors.

The BMW 6.75L V8 that goes into phantom has Rolls Royce on the upper intake as well as the cam covers, and is bored to be a cute 6.75L. The old 5.4L V12 was a right off the shelf BMW engine, and it said so right on it.

I read the dupont registry, there are not that many NEW ones. Even the new ones have a strangely high number of miles on them (like into the hundreds). That bugs me.

I give BMW credit, BMW makes better engines than anyone else out there, I'd love to see their motors more places, and I'm glad they made their V12 specialized for the Rolls, it was retuned for low end torque and delivers. That and it pulls higher and more quietly than old 6.75 Pushrod turbo engine.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Mercedes Type 12? The Bentley V-8 was spittin' game when that thing was in diapers, and with one turbo. Hell, it was doing it when the people who designed the Type 12 were in diapers, and will still be doing it in some form or another when Mercedes cuts it's losses and the Type 12 is gone. I am not impressed by that motor or the car it's in, it's a 12 cylinder anyhow. As for the 5.9 liter V-12's origins I never doubted it, in fact I never mentioned it.

Besides, if you get too high tech, there is no way you can work on it yourself, which I know you like to do. I'm suprised you can even tinker with your Boxter, without a professional shop with all the right equipment, what could you possibly do besides tug on wires?

And about the Diablos', those damn dealers should refrain from racking up hundreds of miles on an unsold car, that should not even be allowed by the factory.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i know they should refrain from that, but after that long, people just joyride the damn thigns. It's a shame. I demanded my boxster S have fewer than 5 miles on the odometer when I recieved it. The boxster is a pain in the ass because the engine, as well as everything else are tucked way up under there. Nothing is easy to get at. People ask to see my engine, i just point under the car. I can't work on it. The jag isn't too hard, mostly because it is the "uber-taurus". The land rover is easy too.

My suzuki is a pain because it was poorly engineered and intended for midgets to work on it (and I am 6'3", my arm is too big around in diameter to get to the oil filter, it is agrivating). My 318i is a joy, the early 90s cars were to best to work on.

I'm glad that you agree the old V8 is antiquated and very old. Sure it makes lots of torque, but it isn't in league with the smoothness and power of the type 12. The V8 might have low end, but Type 12 is just turbine like in how it always has go in it. For 300 grand, I want something state of the art, top of the line, and I sure as hell don't want to work on it myself.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Actually, the Bentley V-8 has undergone quite a bit of updating in recent years, now having smaller, faster spooling twin turbos among a host of refinements. With 645 lb. ft. of torque at 3,250 rpm, the thrust range is now more broad and less abrupt. The peak horsepower has been increased to 450 at only 100 rpm higher than before, Thus expanding it's power band evermore. Hey, that rhymes!

No one can fault this engine in terms of how rugged it is and what can be done with it. The feeling of being pushed by this engine is a kin to the constant thrust of a turbine. Some actually miss the way the old single turbo model kicked you in the ass when the boost came in. I think it's safe to say that the Mercedes Type 12 will never have this kind of charactor. And no, you don't have to work on the 6.75 yourself if you don't want to, but you could. If I'm not mistaken, if something happens to your Type 12, Mercedes has to ship a mechanic to your door, and not because they're being nice. Don't think you aren't paying for that.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

type-12 has a reliability reccord that is flawless, Bentley's V8's is a bit more infamous. The updating you're talking about is when VW took over, they reworked the forced induction system to make it more like thier own, one smaller turbo per bank. Power is more seemless, but hardly a type-12, there is an article in Automobile this month comparing Rolls Phantom, Bentley Arnage, and Maybach 57. I'm not sure what gave you the idea that bentley's V8 was easy to work on. I'm saying, if i spent 300 grand on a car like that, I'd be able to afford mercedes' mechanic. The type 12 doesn't have character, that is it's selling point. It is all about performance. Silent emotionless performance, the ultimate in german luxury.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

I didn't say the 6.75 would be easy to work on, but a single person puts the thing together, and it would have to be a hell of a lot simpler to work on than a Type 12. The Type 12 is far too new to have a real world reliability rating, I'll bet there isn't a production Maybach that has covered more than 25,000 miles, and thats' a large figure.

What it comes down to is this, comparing the Type 12 to the 6.75 is like comparing apples to oranges. Personally, I like my engines with soul and charactor, if all it new how to do was take me someplace in cold silence, I would not feel I got my money's worth.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

The type 12 has been around a while before maybach. S600 used it naturally aspirated, and mercedes tests their engines abusively. I don't know if any other manufacturer in the world makes engines as solidly built as mercedes. The Type 12 isn't just going to take you someplace in silence, it will be a catapult the whole way. The engine looses nothing. It hauls almost 6,000lbs of maybach to 60 in 5.2 secconds in absolute silence, it looses nothing from 60-120, it is an incredibly capable powerplant. Type 12s are assembled by AMG by a two man team. Type 12 is just much more modern, it is newer more efficient technology. Do you think the 4.4L V8 in your 740 is full of character, because that seems to be the same style quiet catapult engine.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

I thought about that, the 4.4 V-8 is a pretty smooth and quiet powerplant, but you can feel it, hear it growl, it's not too isolated. I think BMW engines tend to be less isolated than Mercedes. BMW lets you know you are driving a MACHINE.

It's like a Ferrari engine, no matter how much of a catapult it was, if it went about it's business in absolute silence, and you could'nt feel it, you just would not be satisfied.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

it's like this, there are all sorts of fast cars, the difference is how they feel.

An SL55 and a ferrari F360 run to sixty in even time.

The F360 will scream and yell and shake and let you know in excess about ever bit of work it is doing to shoot you that fast. SL55 will quietly put you there without giving any indication besides a muted rumble as to what it is doing to get you there. My alfa romeo makes a ton of noise, and shakes, and is a violent feeling car, and I appreciate that, but I also like how my jaguar feels, silently rushing you up to speed. You can hear some growl, especially with the windows down, but it is a pretty calm ordeal.

Most people buying a huge limousine like that aren't there for a no holds barred violent performance car feel, they like the isolated calm silence, else they'd have spent their 300 grand on a ferrari or lambo.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

If you're in the rear compartment, lounging upon the finest leather, and curling your toes in the carpet as you contemplate your good fortune, whether in a Bentley Arnage or a Maybach, I dont' think you are really going to notice or care if the engine pushing you along is a heavily modified 40 some year old design or a state of the art V-12.

An internal combustion engine, which the Bentley engine is, and the Type 12 too, no matter how " turbinelike " it is, can only be made so smooth, and they are both obviously very smooth, and capable, or they would not be the hearts of the supreme luxury cars that they are in.

To each his own. :wink::)

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

that's fine. The Type 12 hustle's the heavier maybach to sixty over a seccond faster than the bentley.

And the maybach is totally smooth and absolutely silend. All you will hear is the ice in your drink shift as it accelerates.

That my freinds is money.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Or as the drink spills all over your lap! :D Who cares' about 0 to 60 in cars like these? Wasn't it you who suggested that people buying these aren't looking for no holds barred violent performance car feel? The Arnage T hits 60 in a consistant 4.5 seconds, which is pretty damn fast, and you say the Maybach is a second quicker? That sounds like no holds barred violent performance car feel to me. No matter how silent, 0 to 60 in 3.5 would still rattle your bones. The Bentley is lacking nothing in unflappable acceleration.

And in terms of asthetics. No one can argue that the Bentley is the more special looking car, more dignified. Where as the Maybach is a streamlined super S-Class, and the Arnage is over 100 grand cheaper. Not only that, but with a length from 18'.9" to 20'.3" and a wheelbase to match, I doubt that the Maybach handles for shit. If you get that Type 12 pumping and you hit some curves, you can either put your foot on the brakes, or you can kiss your first class ass good bye. But then, these cars aren't about drag racing and twisty roads are they? :D:)

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

the maybach runs 0-60 in 4.8 secconds, the R runs it in 5.9, a seccond+ slower.

The T does although run it in 5.5, not 4.5, 5.5. Conti GT, the W16 powered one does it in 4.5.

The maybach is an amazingl handling car. It beat a boxster S around nurembergring, and at this price, these cars better be about everything.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

If the Maybach beat a Boxter S around Nurembergring, I doubt it had anything to do with the handling, more like all out brute force. There is no way in heaven or hell that a car the size of the Maybach could have handling sharper than a Boxter. You have to agree with that.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i agree that it can't handle sharper, but it can handle pretty damn well for it's size, a lot of it was brute force, just the same, maybach took boxster S by a fraction around the hell.

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