Best looking japanese supercar

[thepolarfoxqx]

For 90k, you get a car functionally no greater than a mustang cobra that retails for 30k. actually, a cobra can be taken through the mcD's drivethrough, the skyline, not so much. it's a novelty more than a practicality

[Anzeige eBay]

Hallo wanderer,

 

kennst du schon Best looking japanese supercar (Anzeige)? Dort ist vieles zu finden.

 

Andere Automarken Ersatzteile (Anzeige) | Andere Automarken Zubehör (Anzeige)

[wEstSide]

Sorry to stop your digressing, but I cast my vote for the Mazda RX-7, it has beautiful and tasteful styling. NSX Type-R comes in as a close second, as it is also a beautiful car, but it just lacks something, maybe its not original enough. I don't see the whole deal about the Skyline, sure it looks pretty good, but other than the r34 gt-r the styling is pretty bland.

[cstavaru]

The fact that so many people voted for skyline shows that the car looks good. You have the right to your opinion, but when so many people like it...it really means there's something to it.

[LateNightCable]

You have the right to your opinion, but when so many people like it ( the Skyline )...it really means there's something to it.

It simply means that the car is popular. That is all.

[bleh]

The fact that so many people voted for skyline shows that the car looks good. You have the right to your opinion, but when so many people like it...it really means there's something to it.

????all it means is other people think it looks good. thats it. there isnt a wrong answer.

i think its the ugliest car of the choices. its no sleek, kinda chunky, and look at the fake vent behind the rear wheel... dumb dumb dumb dumb.

EDIT: sorry to repeat LNC

[LateNightCable]

The fake air vent in the photo is not Nissan's idea.

[rordog]

@thepolarfoxqx

I realize this is a late response, but I just read this thread.

A pontiac GTO.. Seriously.

A pontiac come on. Who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself.

Granted it is fast, but to say that the performace is equal to a skyline gtr please. Domestic vehicles have advanced about as much as my grandmother has in her goal to win an olympic medal. When in doubt they just make the engine bigger or bring back nearly extinct technology (can you say hemi). I find it funny that the viper's massive 8.3L engine delivers comparible numbers to the new M5 engine that is ~5L. I am aware M5's are not japanese, but bmw's were pulled into this discussion earlier and it further demonstrates how some companies innovate while others just give an engine more displacement.

If you know you racing history you would know that the gtr has been banned from some classes of racing for demonstrating complete dominance against cars that even had v8's.

Pontiac is big in Nascar (maybe , I'm not sure) going in a circle is a little different than actually racing.

also a 90k price tag is high, but an nsx is expensive, and so is an m3, and s2000's(souped up convertable civic) and 350z's are a dime a dozen. a skyline is rare in NA thereby warranting an exclusive price tag. Price of most things in the world is driven by demand in case everyone was unaware. The 2007 gtr won't be priced that high in NA because Nissan will bring the vehicle over here and a GTO won't touch that car. Nor will an s2000, 350z, or nsx. An new m3 will because they are smoking.

A camaro is considered an exclusive car in Japan, funny how a lack of availability increases the status of a vehicle.

I have strayed from the r34 discussion, but I get infuriated when people are ignorant of how demand for a product influences buying behavior in people.

by the way I wouldn't vote for the r34 either and I've seen them in person, which I am confident that most of you have not. My vote would be for the ultra-sleek s15. But nissan failing to capitalize on that market in NA, while Subaru, Mitsu, dodge, and others do is another story.

If you don't understand why a person would say or do what they do then you should not attempt to partake.

later, rordog

[LateNightCable]

A pontiac GTO.. Seriously. Granted it is fast, but to say that the performace is equal to a skyline gtr please. Domestic vehicles have advanced about as much as my grandmother has in her goal to win an olympic medal. When in doubt they just make the engine bigger or bring back nearly extinct technology (can you say hemi).

What exactly is extinct about a hemisperical combustion chamber? And how is turbocharging, which the GT-R makes heavy use of not outdated? In stock street form, the Skyline is not the dominating supercar you make it out to be.

I find it funny that the viper's massive 8.3L engine delivers comparible numbers to the new M5 engine that is ~5L.

It doesn't. 383lb.ft. or torque @ 6,100 and 500lb.ft. @ 4,200 are quite different. The M5's V10 is working a lot harder than the Viper's - which is to say, the Viper is far from maxed out.

The 2007 gtr won't be priced that high in NA because Nissan will bring the vehicle over here and a GTO won't touch that car.

The next Skyline will be a repackaged Z-car. Expect it to be touched by a lot of cars.

by the way I wouldn't vote for the r34 either and I've seen them in person, which I am confident that most of you have not.

Don't be so sure. The Skyline is rare, but it's no unicorn.

[rordog]

@latenightcable

Perhaps ‘extinct’ was the wrong word. How about practically extinct.

Hemispherical engines all but disappeared until recently as a throwback to the 60's and 70's by the domestic producers.

the technology is virtually unchanged which matches up well with push rod engines and their similarly outdated level of mechanical sophistication.

You are correct, turbos are old technology as well, but the major difference is that major improvements have been made to these systems; especially in recent years.

The M5 and viper comparison may have been a bit of a stretch, but examining the numbers for peak torque that you have been so kind to provide all but eliminates the argument about either engine being more stressed.

Simple math states that the Viper: 500@ 4,200rpm with a redline of 6,000 rpm means the engine is ~70%stressed.

The M5 383@ 6,100 with redline of 8,250rpm means the engine is ~73% maximum stress. An insignificant difference.

Also to argue the relative stress of the viper. The vehicle had the commonly unknown problem of not lasting more than 2-3yrs even under normal use in the first gen.(maybe because it is a truck engine put into a supercar) In addition to that the M5 is a veritable cornucopia of technology.

The next skyline will be a repackaged G35 (current skyline in Japan) that will more than likely carry over the ATTESA awd system (from r34) and be a twin turbo vq3.5. Expect it to produce numbers in excess of 350hp (more likely close to 400). Sure lots of cars will be able to beat it: Porsche, Corvette (best car for the buck,see I like domestics, though it is grossly outdated and hosts one ugly new front end), and a varying assortment of other vehicles. The car will command more respect than you are giving.

The skyline is not a unicorn, but I can count on one hand, even if I was missing three fingers, the number that I have seen outside of car shows.

The skyline is not the be all and end all of supercars, but it does arguably have the most advanced awd system in the world and it does hold down the prestigious position of the 2nd best awd vehicle in the world (second only to the 911 turbo). Nissan must have done something right along the way aside from run the company to the brink of bankruptcy.

[LateNightCable]

Actually, I wish to correct myself, the Viper makes 525 lb.ft. By your measure, the Viper V10 is 73% maxed out by the time it makes maximum torque. But this takes us back to horsepower. Viper V10 - 500 hp. @ 5,600, M5 V10 - 507hp. @ 7,750. Using that same measure of calculation, the stress levels in relation to redlines are similar, but the difference is that the Viper's V10 is capable of producing a lot more power, with little to know increase in rpm. The M5 needs to spin high in order to make great power. Meaning you could tune a Viper to make a lot more than 500hp. and 525 lb.ft. - Dodge wanted that amount, but good luck squeezing a lot more power from the M5.

Saying that a technology is "outdated" or has gone unchanged doesn't prove it's unworthiness. Indeed such technology has gone unchanged because it's inexpensive and does the job. The Corvette should not be seen as grossly outdated just because it does not happen to be a showcase for new technology. Rather it's an example of how solid old tech can be made modern. Otherwise, it's like saying your grandmother is a rotten person just because she's old and hasn't changed much over the years.

A Viper and an M5 make their power in very different ways, but I would not relegate one to extinction over the other, because they're both here now, and can both hold their own quite well.

I've never heard stories of 1st. gen Vipers lasting only two years. And the fact that there are still many roadworthy 1st. gen Vipers for sale today proves they are alright. Nontheless, it should be understood that, the 1st. gen Vipers were very rough and experimental machines. The engine itself was fully converted for performance car use.

Also, it should be noted that the 911 Turbo could be the best all wheel drive sports car. It wouldn't get anywhere in a jungle.

[Anzeige eBay]

Hallo wanderer,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema Zubehör für Andere Automarken (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

[rordog]

Vipers can be tuned to produce incredibly unreliable high amounts of power. I can't argue that point, but as to what the v10 in the M5 can be tuned to.. No idea it is a new engine is it not? Granted it is based off of their formula 1 engine but it is night and day from the beginning point. So ask again in another ten years and we will see what levels the m5 v10 has been tuned to given the sort of aftermarket tuning support that the viper has seen.

I would never imply that my grandmother is a rotten person and I hope that you weren't either. I would never ask here to compete against young athletes in the prime of their lives no matter how strong she was or what skills she has. That would be unfair, but dodge and other domestics don't feel that way I guess.

I like to think that the human race is in a never ending quest to achieve better. Innovation powers the world. I guess various domestic producers are just hoping that an alternative drive train becomes the norm because they are so far behind in the game that it would be virtually impossible for them to catch up. The wonderful old technology that you speak of is basically as good as it is going to get. It has reached the end of its potential for the most part. Some of the stuff that is showing up in innovative cars is well under 10years old and just off of the racing machines. Give this stuff half a century of development and we will see where everything lines up.

To use an analogy: When driving the majority of your attention is spent looking through the front window with only glances backward. Similarly the past should be viewed as a reference point, but the future is where the potential is. Relying entirely on technology that is archaic by current innovative standards in like only looking in the rearview mirror and it is not where you are going, it is where you have been. Just because something has worked well in the past, even if it works well now, it is not always going to be the best and one will be left to wonder what has happened.

Regarding the 911 turbo; yes sports car was implied, this is a sports car thread, but the 911 has proved to be viable off-road too. Not necessarily in the jungle though few vehicle have. Beefed up suspension and the 911 is raring to go. I watched some show on discovery where they took two 911’s and drove them across some country entirely off road and over some pretty impressive terrain, but not a jungle, certainly not. Also the vehicles that do really well off road are not awd they are 4wd (4wd and awd are quite different when it comes down to it) with locking differentials and various climbing/decent 4wd modes. So I will stick to the 911 turbo being the best awd vehicle in the world and the skyline gtr34 coming in second.

I agree with you both vehicles do have a place in the world. Vipers and Corvettes are awesome performance machines, but they are the pinnacle of what can be accomplished using the technology that they do. Bmw, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and a whole list of others are just beginning to show us where internal combustion engines can go. Also the costs of new tech go down as more of it is produced. Push-rods once were new and expensive.

Obviously I side with the future outlook team, but I look to better myself and the things around me at every turn. The computer I am typing on right now; brand new and close to top of the line. Sure a three year old comp could do this task just as well, maybe better if that technology was fully optimized and built for this single purpose, but my current comp is filled with new and improved technology that drives continued innovation. We can’t stop moving forward it is how we got past the wheel to where we are now.

Why stop?

This last bit has been off topic, but is it not truly the root of a discussion like this?

Later, rordog

[LateNightCable]

I don't see what you mean by unreliable power coming from a modified Viper motor. If the engine is in fine working order and modified intelligently, it will perform reliably. The M5's V10 is not based off of BMW's F1 engine, but rather inspired by - different bank angle, everything. Though it is pushing the envelope that you refer to in regards to what can be manufactured in large quantities. Making a reliable 10 cylinder engine which redlines at over 8,000 rpm - for reletively mass consumption is no small feat. This engine is far more maxed than a Viper's engine, that's a fact - the Viper V10 has history on it's side, and there is no way a motor like that with an operating speed of under 6,000 rpm could ever really be stressed anyway. The M5 power plant is designed to withstand very high internal stresses - for the power it is designed to produce. It's really built to put out what it's putting out now. Nothing more nothing less.

I can certainly appreciate the eye on the future, positive progression - but only when it's positive. We live in a retail society which depends upon us buying new things. The makers of new things would have you believe that it is always better than the old, but this is not always true. The fact is, most all "new" technology is an improvement upon something that already exists - it's an evolution. On that note, true racing technology makes it to only the highest end cars. Don't expect ceramic breaks or 10,000 rpm piston engines from a family car - ever. In production form, true racing technology can only be found in the likes of Ferrari and such. Costs do go down as use goes up. But automotive grade aluminum and carbon fiber should really be cheaper for that matter, but preparation of these materials is more intensive and time consuming than steel etc. This is where having one's eye always on the future pays off. Eventually, these materials will be easier to work with and more widely used, and hence, cheaper to bring to market. But in the meantime, I see no reason to castigate that which has come before if it works well. I just have a greater reverence for the past I guess.

Because it's like the old saying. " You can't know where you're going, until you know where you've been. " This is true. There is something to be said for being content with some things just the way they are. Never being satisfied sounds catchy, but in reality it must be such a bitch. Which brings to mind another saying - " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. "

Bottom line is, internal combustion itself is way outdated. Even the highest tech V10 engine is a relic. Internal combustion is like a rusty hammer that has been polished to a sheen over the decades, but it's still a hammer. Alternative power really needs to take a front seat for once. This is something I'm sure a progressive minded person such as yourself can appreciate.

And lastly. It's all on topic.

[wEstSide]

I'd like to see an F1 engine in a car other than the Yamaha OX 99-11 and that Renault. 120 degree V10s are badass. Oh wait, they're switching to V8s, dammit!

Don't expect ceramic breaks or 10,000 rpm piston engines from a family car - ever.

Check out the 1995 Renault Espace F1 concept.

[LateNightCable]

I remember the Espace F1 concept, but alas, it was a concept - with Renault's actual formula one V10 planted into it. Things like that are so cool, but they would never make regular production.

Too limited a life span, too costly, toooo much! - For the average soccer mom.

[wEstSide]

It was actually built on the F1 chassis. And yes, all petrol engines really are out of date. That's not the wave of the future. I can not see myself driving one 20 years in the future. Turn and face the strange, Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes.

[rordog]

@LateNightCable

My name is Rordog, and I'm a Pickledick. When someone like LateNightCable gives me an argumant that I don't have an answer for, I fly off the handle and begin slinging pointless insults. I am really in no position to judge the size of anyone's genitalia, but I do that because I wish mine weren't so small - and pickle-like. And as long as I continue to write offensive posts on this fine website, LateNight will continue to make me look like an idiot by fiddling with my posts.

Anyway, I was using the word 'based' loosely, which was emphasized by the final product being different like night and day when discussing the m5 v10. Words can have varying degrees of connotation in the English language.

I don’t quite see how a forced induction viper engine pushing ~900+ horses could be considered reliable. My knowledge on vipers (which admittedly is not all encompassing) is that to get the large numbers out of it turbo charging is used. To do this with most engines the internals have to be strengthened and I imagine the viper is no different. Now experience tells me that engines pushed to nearly twice their normal operating ability, no matter how beefed up, inherently run into reliability problems. Parts break significantly more often. This point is moot if resources are virtually unlimited like on some race teams because the engine will be so well tuned, but even then constant repairs and adjustments are the norm. The average viper tuner does not have unlimited funds and ergo unreliable power is created. Many people accept the trade off of more power to more repairs and that is fine, but the fact remains.

The m5 engine is designed to withstand higher internal pressures, which means that it is built stronger in the first place. Now I am not sure of the compression ratio on either vehicle or whether they are turbo friendly (can’t be bothered to look it up), but I image with modification either engine could benefit from some boost. The m5 engine is built to put out what it is putting out now just as the viper engine is too. Many manufacturers could develop engines that produce huge numbers, but stock reliability is a major concern. Testing provides the maximum reliability to power that they can release without fear of catastrophic failure and recalls. Either company could release a more powerful engine, but they choose not to for the reasons above as well as others.

Without argument Honda builds some of the most reliable engines in the world. They are screamers; granted they are 4’s and 6’s, but through the evolution of manufacturing a high revving production v10 is possible. There will always be people who want more power and they could care less how it is achieved. There is no replacement for displacement is an age-old adage that needs to go out the door. The past is a reference point, a benchmark, something that is to be used to see what can be made better. For the most part domestic producers are stagnant; they are standing still. If they haven’t been surpassed (which many people feel they have) then they soon will be.

We may never see ceramic brakes and 10,000 rpm engines on family cars because the average consumer is satisfied with their ignorance to the possibilities. Everything is demand driven. Consumers don’t demand those features therefore they aren’t on those cars. Virtually everything on your vehicle comes from racing in on form or another. Toned down and mass-produced, but developed first for some type of racing.

I for one think the Iron Age, or the Copper age was the highpoint of human society. Those things worked well at the time, but when better materials were found they were used. Mass acceptance is the best way to move down the experience curve and drive down production/development costs on new, better materials like carbon fibre.

“You can’t know where you are going, until you know where you’ve been,” is true which is why I clearly stated the past is a reference point. I am glad you agree with me on that. Again innovation drives the world. At some point push rods were an incredible new design implemented because someone was not happy with the current standard. They were not sated by how things were. Similarly we are seeing push rods go in favor of new designs. It is human nature to progress. It is also human nature to fear the unknown and dig oneself into a nice consistent rut. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Internal combustion is outdated and I did allude to alternative power trains in my last post. I am very excited to see manufacturers pushing the envelope and developing entirely new technology. Sadly this is a field that the domestics are already falling behind in once again even though Ford has made a marginal attempt.

It is interesting LateNightCable, you say don’t fix it if it isn’t broken, and that if something is working well enough then why strive to improve on it or change it. Then you also go on to say that alternative power is the way to go. But I thought push rods were perfect and all the car we would ever need. In the future, if you are in a debate/argument, pick a side and stick with it and try not to completely contradict yourself.

[LateNightCable]

My name is Rordog, and I'm a Pickledick. When someone like LateNightCable gives me an argumant that I don't have an answer for, I fly off the handle and begin slinging pointless insults. I am really in no position to judge the size of anyone's genitalia, but I do that because I wish mine weren't so small - and pickle-like. And as long as I continue to write offensive posts on this fine website, LateNight will continue to make me look like an idiot by fiddling with my posts.

The average viper tuner does not have unlimited funds and ergo unreliable power is created.

Some Viper owners do however, and are willing to pay for massive power with no compromises in reliability.

The m5 engine is designed to withstand higher internal pressures, which means that it is built stronger in the first place. Now I am not sure of the compression ratio on either vehicle or whether they are turbo friendly (can’t be bothered to look it up), but I image with modification either engine could benefit from some boost. The m5 engine is built to put out what it is putting out now just as the viper engine is too.

Expect the compression of the M5 V10 to be quite high, too high for forced induction. BMW engines' are so good because they are designed to make the best possible use of natural asperation - meaning forced induction is not as good for them as they might be in a Viper. The M5's engine is pushing the envelope, meaning it's close to it's limits right out of the factory. The Viper's is tuned to make a "civilized" amount of power, though there is room for much more. One has only to look at such cars as the Henessy Viper Venom 800TT.

It is interesting LateNightCable, you say don’t fix it if it isn’t broken, and that if something is working well enough then why strive to improve on it or change it. Then you also go on to say that alternative power is the way to go. But I thought push rods were perfect and all the car we would ever need. In the future, if you are in a debate/argument, pick a side and stick with it and try not to completely contradict yourself.

I am simply looking at things from all angles. Try it sometime.

[rordog]

@LateNightCable

Honestly LNC some of the things you say...

I wonder if anyone else sees how ludicrous some of the things that you are saying are.

I said the average viper owner does not have unlimited funds, to which you respond “Ya but some do duhhhhh.” Very clever LNC

The M5 engine will more than likely be higher compression than the viper, but people have turbocharged M5 V8’s in the past in excess of 1000hp. So why would this engine be different? 2 extra cylinders and a comparable compression ratio to the past. Sounds like a lot of power if you are willing to spend the money. Granted the viper will produce big numbers for cheaper, but it is the affordable super car of the world. Also you threw the monetary argument out the window with your comment about how some civilian viper owners do have unlimited funds so therefore some m5 owners have similar funds and can create huge hp numbers with no compromise in reliability.

This generation viper may be more refined which makes the vehicle more streetable, but previous models were raging beasts that took a very skilled driver to operate the vehicle with confidence. The power the viper produces can never be called “civilized” by any stretch of the term when compared to other vehicles in its performance market. Ya Ya Ya to this you will say “you should be a good driver to drive that kind of car, but reality is, with the price point being sub 100k the car can be bought by almost anyone who really wants it and earns a decent salary.

Unfortunately for you I called you out pretty bad on how inconsistent your stance is on this topic. You can say you are looking at things from different angles but your admitted reverence for the past, which prevents you from moving beyond push-rods and hemis, to more advanced internal combustion configurations also makes it difficult to jump on board with alternative power forms. It just doesn’t work that way. You clearly said that if something works well then why improve on it and alternative power is a vast improvement on your pinnacle of development: the push-rod. You picked a side so stick to it or risk being called out when you contradict your own arguments. Unless of course, you are admitting the weakness of your points and bowing out.

On a different note, I seem to have touched on a sensitive issue for you. If you need to gain more information you simply have to perform a Google search or check the junk mail in your email as this is often bombarded with advertisements for increasing… Well your stature as a man.

The reason I say this is because the insult I said was not a strike at the region below the belt, but rather a generic derogatory put down. Like s##thead. Which does not imply your head is actually comprised of feces(though I am begining to wonder). You took it as a literal translation; which leads me to believe you have issues with lil’ LateNight.

Oh and by the way good job on changing my previous post with your super-human moderator powers. (look out here comes super LateNightCable) If you are afraid others will agree with me, or that you are losing, which you have obviously demonstrated by altering my post, then I guess I understand your cowardly method of oppressing my right to free-speech. On second thought I can’t understand it. I did not break forum protocol (one non-swearing insult) or if I did it would warrant a warning and deleting the offensive material. You have proven to be such a coward that you tamper with the rest of what I have written. Good job, I hope you feel like a big man, though I bet that is difficult given your aforementioned predicament.

Try not altering my post this time and let the outcome of the argument fall where it may. Consider LNC you can not erase or modify what people say or do in real life to win an argument, so why would you resort to those underhanded tactics here?

Later, rordog

[bleh]

bro i dont feel like reading the whole thread and your posts are too damn long. hell i dont even know what you 2 are arguing about and with the given content i dont care. but if your going to reem him out like that why dont you keep it to the pm? i think i have picked a fight with everyone on this board but latenight. dont know how there could be such a nasty disagreement. his modification of your post was pretty merciful compared to how harsh the moderators can get on other forums.

seriously i just tried reading the posts to see what the big deal was about, but damn. dude, thats just too much reading.

cliffnotes to my novel of a post:

-latenight is usually a nice guy.

-Ecclesiastes 5:3(the second half)

[rordog]

Experience tells me that an idiot is one who can not master their own language, especially written.

If you lack the mental fortitude to read the post then do me a favor and display a similar level of indolence and refrain from responding.

Clever use of theology though, but it means nothing to an atheist.

Good advice on the pm I may make use of it in the future.

and who said LNC wasn't a nice guy?

later, rordog

[wEstSide]

Is it just me or are you a little harsh? Or perhaps you're asking for a flame war? Seriously, "calling him out" on which engine is better in Japanese Supercars? You shouldn't call out Waylon "The Real" Deal, he'll take ya down

On a slightly more on-topic note, I don't see why you seem to hate the viper with great vigor (perhaps vehemence is a better word). It has many advantages, which is why you see more of them at the track than M5s, granted, they are the older GTS models, not the "SRT-10." However, the new Viper has also proved formidable, don't forget it makes more power than previous revisions. Verdict: M5 is more high-tech, but really what does that mean? The Viper has more "usable" power, more power potential (over 8L displacement), and is a convertible . Actually, I don't really see how the two can be compared, as the M5 is a 4-door performance sedan. Anyway, Viper has a really great chassis, the only real qualm I have about the Viper is the small steering angle (30 degrees).

[rordog]

He certainly has proved effective so far (not really at all) unless the 'real deal' accomplishes his mission by altering other peoples posts.

My original post indicated that the viper is simply an underachiever.

Yes it produces outstanding performace at a relatively low cost, but keep in mind it has the largest production engine on the planet for a sports car. (even larger than the w16 in the bugatti veyron, which doesn't even really count as a production vehicle).

Yes the viper is awesome bang for the buck and the chassis was never even questioned, but given the massive size of the engine numerous other manufacturers would be offering a hell of a lot more car. I don't think dodge can get much more power out of that engine in NA form.

the biggest numbers i've seen for a viper is ~1,200whp. so what approx 1,500 at the crank. While that is alot of power, it is too bad numbers close to that can be squeezed out of a rb26dett. a whopping 5.7L less displacement.

I don't dispise the viper, it is a rocket, it just falls short iof its potential.

comparing m5's and vipers is difficult all I wanted was for the unaware to realize that some companies continually push the envelope and others feel that we don't deserve significant advancement.

The m5 has had renowned success worldwide, whereas the viper is a hit in north america (ya go american muscle) we will see how it does in europe later this year.

I never intended to start a flame war, just to either be acknowledged or proven wrong convincingly. I have no reason to post on this subject again as that is obviously not going to happen. Unless I get flamed, I like defending myself.

later, rordog

[LateNightCable]

Dear Rordog,

I believe 100% in your freedom of speech - short of immature name calling. If you'll notice, I didn't edit anything from your post that was relevant to your argument. As for the comment about genitals, I thought I was clear that I didn't take anything like that seriously. I was merely flinging your joke back at you. I was having a civil debate with you until you turned elementary school on me.

As I recall, your original point was that you thought the Viper V10 was "extinct", and therefore no good, simply because it didn't sport the latest technology. I countered by saying there is a place for everything if it works well, no matter how old. That big V10 is what it is, and doesn't claim to be anything else. As a side discussion, we were comparing the engine's of the Viper and the M5 - not the cars themselves. As has been pointed out, comparing the M5 with the Viper is silly. But I maintain that there is more room in the Viper V10 for modification, and therefore power, than in the M5 V10. Simply because it is less specialized. The Viper engine is like hamburger - it's simple and a lot can be done with it, and there is no replacement for displacement. I never said anything about civilized.

It may be hard for you to believe, but I do value technology that has stood the test of time, while recognizing the value in useful advancements. If that seems wishy washy to you, then you would never understand me. I love antique cars, and I look forward to a practical alternative power car - Imagine that.

And I am a nice guy, lets be civil. Fostering a peaceful atmosphere for discussion - not altering posts - is the coolest thing a mod can do.

- LateNight

[skyline_r34v]

This thread should be pruned (deleted) of all the bickering and get back to the original thread subject.

[LateNightCable]

Back on topic deffinitely, but throughout the bickering, there is information, so we'll just go from here.

Skyline, is there anything you would like to add to get this thread on track?