Who tunes the best, Mercedes AMG or BMW M?

[izzyloveslizzy]

First of all I don't think it would "never ever ever" happen. It very well could, in a crazy world such as the one we're living in.

I know about the SLR :roll: , and I know about the M1 too :roll: . But I meant M and AMG could get together and make an S7 or at least a spinoff of some "lesser" car.

- izzy

P.S.: Tell me if I sound a bit annoying or moody. I've been having a bad day (or week..., ...err, month). Oh heck I'm having a bad life. I don't mean to be mean or insulting or rude towards anyone, it's just that I'm getting a lot of attitude and abuse from most everyone (whether they know me or not) for no reason. Sorry in advanec if I sound a bit sarcastic or angry or anything like that - I myself can't normally tell.

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Hallo riconijhof,

 

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[thepolarfoxqx]

hey, insulting and ornary is fun. Hang in there. One day you'll wake up and life will look much better.

AMG and M are pretty bitter enemies, and i think either company could create an S7 if they really wanted. I think the M1 will likely have performance approaching an S7, the SLR will likely be in league with a koenigsegg (assuming AMG can deliver the power).

[izzyloveslizzy]

I'm waiting for the M6 and the M4 AS WELL AS the M1. But I know AMG and M are bitter enemies. I was just day-dreaming on that one!

[thepolarfoxqx]

yeah, i'd like to see the next gen of M cars. here is what i have gathered on them

M1 - a center engine car with 450+hp from either a 5.5L V10 or supercharged 3.6L I6

M3 - next gen gets a highly tuned 4.4L V8 good for ~400hp

M4 next gen - high winding 3.2L I6 good for 350+hp

M5 - 5.5L V10 550hp

M6 - M5 in coupe form

M7? If it happens, a highly tuned 6.0L V12 good for 600hp.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Well, since Audi's S8 is getting so much recognition (not really, but it's significant enough) and the MB AMG S series is also rolling, so BMW may be VERY tempted to dish out their own version of the luxory-barge gone wild. The M7 is a definite possibility. I don't want to see just another factory S version, though it would be better than nothing.

By the way dude, you forgot the M2. It was originally dreamt up as a mid.-engine RWD 3-Litre V10 with ~600HP. Here's the only sketch of it I ever found:

Then again there was also this, an unexplained, uh, thing:

[thepolarfoxqx]

M2 is an interesting concept. 200hp/l is a bit dicey. heck, pressing 109, the connecting rods in their m3 e46 are giving out.

Only thing, you can have a manually shifted 7 series (without re-laying out the cabin). in fact, everything gets integrated into i-drive. Either you would have a paddle shifted SMG - and have the settings linked to I-drive, or retain the 6spd autobox (very un M-Like).

[izzyloveslizzy]

Dicey? Heh, more like audacious, to put it very lightly.

Also, it's pretty obvious they'd never put the 6-speed auto box in there. In fact if anything the paddle-shifted SMGs are fast becoming a BMW way of life so you may see it more often in BMWs of the future than any other type of transmission.

Man I can't wait to see the next versions of the BMW engines technologified and made with 5 valves/cyl. and more insane timing techniques. They're so far ahead of most companies (bar Audi and MB and Porsche) that it's getting ridiculous. How could somone buy anything other than a BMW with so many attractive cars and attractive engine choices (eventhough the pricing may never be exactly "attractive").

[iori_slk]

///M is not a tuner. They make engines from zero.

/////AMG tunes engines from Mercedes, like the 3.2 V6 and the 5.0 V8

So the best tuner is AMG

[thepolarfoxqx]

that not from scratch is "not exactly" . For instance, the 4.9L block is identical to that of the 4.4L, but bored and stroked. The heads are remarkably similar, the innovations like single throttle body per cylender is M only. AMG engines are much closer to stock MB, but ///M is still very much a tuner. The 3.2L that used to go into E36 M3 was very similar to a highly tuned, bored, and stroked 2.8L, as was the E30 M3's 2.3L to the 318's 1.8L.

[izzyloveslizzy]

One of the main reasons Motorsport didn't race "alone" was because they are tuners, and not independent engine manufacturers. In fact, the striking similarities between N.A. untuned BMW engines and Motorsport tuned BMW engines (such as their Milage after certain tunes and/or detunes, and etc.) should be partial evidence of whether or not M engines were BMW engines to begin with or not.

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Hallo riconijhof,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema Zubehör für Sportwagen Kaufberatung (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the ///M engines are built to M specifications, and are based on stock BMW engine designs. AMG engines are built to AMG specification, and are based on MB engines. AMG cranks the engine higher by force feeding, ///M by deep breathing, both work, and both engines feel characteristic of their roots. You get behind the wheel of an M5 and tell me it doesn't feel every bit 540i 6spd on steroids.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Well, can't say I've done that. I'd love to drive a 540i though. And I'd like even more to drive an ///M5. And maybe the AMG E class as well. Then I can tell you what I personally think of the engine feel of both cars.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the ///M5 feels just like a faster, stiffer, and more responsive 540i-6speed. I guess you'll have to take my word for it, but i promise, the feel is there. The E36 M3 felt just like a beefer 325. The new E46's I6 is more exotic in performance, but has the same docile nature.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Hmmmm.... , I guess I'll have to take your word for it like you said. You've certainly been more fortunate than I have, in driving cars. I've driven like, maybe 5 or 6 cars. None of which come close to any '90+ BMW or Mercedes-Benz - and your info and reviews seem more trust-worthy than most other people's - so I'll definitely take your word for it.

I'd have to say any Manufacturer-related tuning company that can retain the best of the lower-end versions of the cars, keep the identity and values, and add more buzz, has succeeded. Essentially both AMG and M have done a magnificent job of that, because they are still more desireable in almost every way, than the "untweaked" versions of the cars.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the best part of mercedes and bmw, and their tuning arms, is that both cars have so much left in them, and how they tune follows the same values as the manufacturers. I personally find after market tuners interesting in that Alpina tunes a bmw for more mercedes style performance, and Renntech tunes mercedes for bmw style performance.

But, the M and AMG remove all of the compromises of their basic lines. Hard to call a winner.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Wow. To be honest I never thought of it. But you're right. The Alpina and Renntech thing that you mentioned is actually true.

As for the line "hard to call a winner": that's the idea behind what both tuners try to do. M and AMG always want to compete and close the gap between each other, and they have no "identity" issues to worry about, so each can actually just copy what the other does.

[thepolarfoxqx]

M will never make a car with an automatic tranny, AMG isn't about to make a car with carbon fibre or brushed aluminum over wood on its dashboard. They don't copy each other really at all. Even their way of performance is differnt. AMG is about pin you to the seat bottom end grunt, an effortless feel, BMW is about screaming top end and razor sharp handling.

[Jochsim]

I have the '01 M3 and the '03 SL55 AMG. I would say that the M cars are more pure in their sports orientation, but with the SL55 AMG is showing a more aggressive side that is very appealing. BMW M is great at engine, braking, handling; interior is not as good (1/2 the price, though). The SL55 offers a sublime package of luxury and sport. With a low center of gravity, almost 500 hp, and breathtaking torque, it is a wonderful machine. With an aggressive weight reduction program (say 800 lbs.) and a manual transmission, the SL55 and E55 would render current M cars obsolete.

The likely reason for no manual and also for excessive weight (in SL55's case) from AMG is a current difference in demographics between Mercedes customers and BMW customers. A lot of Mercedes owners likely have less interest in the pure sports car experience, and therefore the economics are unfavorable. That could change if AMG attracts a distinct following that looks more like M's. In any case, a manual transmission is one of the less challenging problems that AMG would face in closing any gap with M.

I would say the default expectation is higher from BMW M, but AMG is showing that it can put on the pressure. This is good for partisans of both brands, as it forces both M and AMG to improve faster. By the way, my M3 is dustier than my SL55.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the thing is though, yeah, if you knocked off 800lbs and gave the SL55 and E55 cars manuals, they would be awsome, dropping 800lbs just isn't going to happen without loosing like - the back seat, and a body panel or two.

Weight is a huge issue in cars, and in the case of M vs. AMG, makes all the difference.

[Kevin321]

I will go with ///M no mater what.

[thepolarfoxqx]

even after bangle mangles them?

[LateNightCable]

Possible future styling mayhem aside, you have to go with M. Nobody works the magic for factory tuned high end performance like ///M!

[Kevin321]

hands down BMW is the best

[sebastian2]

om in onze eigen taal te spreken. ja , ik ben een belg.

eigenlijk vind ik AMG de beste. maar dan wel als ze met compresoren werken. anders niet. maar m is :x

i like AMG but not m. i don't know why . probely because i don't love the newest m-cars .

[izzyloveslizzy]

Well, there is one area where AMG has the upperhand. When AMG tunes a car by supercharging the engine from, say, 300BHP to 400BHP, they lose only about 1MPG. Whereas when M does the same, they lose a good 8 or so MPG. And AMG cars seem to have better looking body-kits than M modifications. Or maybe it just seems that way to me.