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imported_Aston Martin

Rolls-Royce Phantom - British, or German?

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imported_Aston Martin
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I'd say German, on account of the number of parts (engine, gearbox, suspension, I-Drive, German leather etc.) that come from B.M.W. What does everyone else think?

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thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

are you positive that is german leather, I thought Rolls Royce prided themselves on using only the finest connolly leather? Anyhow, rolls says their interior materials the best in any car, I wouldn't doubt their claim.

Sure the engine is german, but it has been for some time. The germans do make the world's finest engines, this one doesn't dissapoint. The i-drive was a mistake and stab at the heart of rolls' british character.

the german tranny can't be held against it. Let's face it, the #1 and #2 best automatic transmission producer are in germany, ZF and Mercedes Benz, Jaguar, Volvo, Aston, all of the european manufacturers have used ZF or Merc boxes for years.

Even that POS the ZF 22HP4, which went into everything and anything was state of the art in its day, and universal in european cars, even though flooring the gas in park did severe damage to it.

It is car with a british skin and a british heart, but the blood, muscles,and nerves are german.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

Not 100% sure, but I know I heard that somewhere. They do make fine engines, but where's the fun in every car having the same engine? There'd be no difference in character. What they should have done is develop an all-new Rolls' engine which could be adapted to future Rolls', and possibly sold to other manufacturers.

I always saw the engine as the heart of a car, and the rest as the soul. So, that makes the heart German, and about 60% of the soul too. I really did want to like the new Phantom, but it's just way too German. :cry:

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

develop a whole new line of engines just for rolls? do you honestly believe you could make them bigger than the specially built and tuned 6.75L BMW V12? I really doubt it, that engine is phenomenal. It would be no different than BMW selling rolls the rights to one of their old engines and rolls building it themselves. I see it as good. The british give great character to cars, but I will take the german's engineering every day of the week.

GIR
Geschrieben

I'm 100% sure that Rolls Royce only uses British leather because they produce the leather themselves. The skins are from cows that have been grazing in the open not on a field with wires around them, else you get holes in the skin.

They wash, color, steam, stich, etc. the leather themselves. Even though the engine is from BMW, it goes through the same quality checks as Rolls engines did. Rolls still does produce engine's thoug, except not for cars but for planes.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

Rolls-Royce motors is a very different company to the car manufacturer. Well, maybe I'm mistaken about the leather then, but I'm sure I heard somewhere that it was German.

Do I honestly believe Rolls could make an engine bigger and better than B.M.W? It's possible. Not likely, but possible. Besides, I think you rather miss the point I'm making. Say for example the Miura - great engine, but it's well surpassed by the new engine in the Gallardo. However, the Miura is still the best. It's got Italian blood through and through. If you look at all the cars considered you be the best the in the world past and present, you'll notice one thing - not one of them is perfect. That's where the character stems from; the love of the car, faults-and-all. So perhaps if Rolls had an in-house engine it wouldn't be as good as the B.M.W V12, but it'd add a new measure of Rolls' character that isn't available with the B.M.W engine. With everyone now expecting perfection from even the dumpiest of cars, the real truth has become over-shadowed - in the strive for perfection, the very heart and soul of special companies such as Rolls' and Bentley has been lost. After all, isn't that what people pay a quarter of a million pounds for?

Don't get me wrong, the Phantom is a really great car, but it's not a Rolls-Royce.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben
If you look at all the cars considered you be the best the in the world past and present, you'll notice one thing - not one of them is perfect. That's where the character stems from; the love of the car, faults-and-all. With everyone now expecting perfection from even the dumpiest of cars, the real truth has become over-shadowed - in the strive for perfection, the very heart and soul of special companies such as Rolls' and Bentley has been lost.

I agree with that statement entirely, typo and all. Because it's the absolute truth.

I don't know about now, but in the past, and as far as Bentley goes, the present; the hides come from Scandanavian cows.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

the suicide style doors don't even give it britishness? it is the only production car with that, a through back from the grand days of motoring. When rolls was in their heyday, theirs were the best engines built, and now they get the best engines built put in them. I think decision making and production should be left to rolls in england, i'd like to see them use a rolls tuned BMW V12.

So what if the cows are in scandanavia or england, bavaria, it is how they are tanned that makes all the difference, as long as the seats still smell jaguar sweet inside instead of bmw sour, i'm fine with them.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Rolls really does deserve their very own engine, and very own everything else.

Scandanavian hides make a difference in that, since it's a colder climate, there is minimal scarring due to bug bites. Hey, when your at this level, you consider everything.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

deserve their own engine, they make so few cars it would be grossly impractical, furthermore I have incredible doubts that they could indapendantly develop and engine better than the 6.75L V12 bimmer made for them. If they designed an engine with BMW's help, you'd probably still get the same engine they have now.

no one called the previous generation of Rolls cars german, they had a ZF tranny and steering rack and an off the shelf BMW engine - that said BMW on the engine.

I think this is a step forward.

And at this level, where the cattle are raised will impact their feed protein levels, which can make a difference in the texture of the hide. In that repect, it would be adventageous to have them grazing in a warmer climate. (One of those great facts you learn living in the midwest)

I think things like I-Drive went too far, and I think rolls engineers should have tweaked the engine, but the new car has more character to me than the old one.

The large front grille, the suicide doors, bringing back the phantom name plate, it still has the same quality of woods and leathers. Still english.

With Bentley fixing to get VW W16 power (and they are) and maybach prowling the over 300k segment, rolls couldn't have kept competitive without an engine the calibre of the one BMW made for them, and they couldn't have made an engine like that themselves.

The average rolls buyer will look at it, look at the doors, the woods, the leathers, the interior layout, smell it, and find it to have plenty of british character, and will find the engine supremely quiet, smooth, and powerful. They wouldn't be too put off by it coming from germany.

My father had always wanted a Land Rover, he loved the "great white hunter" feel and the british quirkyness of them, but he never trusted the engineering. The only reason he bought a 2003 is because it was influenced by the BMW ownership. The engine was completely controlled by bosch electronics, the transmission was a ZF, the car is still plenty british, but the german retuned engine and german transmission make it a much better car, both in reliability and driveability.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Grossly impractical? Screw practical, hand building a few thousand cars a year is never practical. If Rolls would have come up with the same engine with BMW's help, than BMW just should have let them do it - Nobody needs a daddy around here to build an engine for them. A big lesson these owning companies need to learn is how to step back and take a supportive role instead of an overbearing one.

When you talk about what they need to do to stay competitive, tell that to GM or Ford. Makes in this league don't sell cars because of bullshit " technology advances ". More than anything else, they sell cars because of who they are. They can be as stone-age as they like, but power and refinement is always a given no matter how old their equipment is.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

BMW is using the rolls phantom as their grand flagship. Like the engine or not, you'd have a hard time finding a better engine anywhere for such a vehicle.

Well, german automakers have a different view on practicality. They believe anything can be relatively practical. Would you know a difference driving if rolls developed it with BMW technology or if BMW developed to emulate the qualities of a rolls engine? i doubt it.

it may hurt you thinking about the principle of the car, but the machine itself is better for it.

Ford and Chevy do sell POS cars because of the name.

The ford mustang is the most rickety poorly constructed thing sold as a new car, it's driving dynamic is poor, the engineering is quesitonable, but it is a mustang, and that guarantees sales.

Then again, don't tell me BMW doesn't sell cars because they are BMW, do remember the yuppies of the 80s, buying their E30 for the logo on the hood?

This segment is all about prestige. It is a showcase. They always loose money on these cars, but it is BMW's way of showing the ultimate in what they can do, ditto for Maybach and bentley.

Bentley is a truly sad story.

There is absolutely nothing british at all about that Continental GT, it is a 100% german car, shared on a platform with like 4 other vehicles, using a right off the shelf generic as hell VW W16. That GT is a 100% VW car with nothing british about it. nothing besides the name.

And BMW beats VW every time. I'd rather have BMW's take on british luxury rather than VW every day.

Give up the idea that BMW will buy Rolls and leave them alone. Already too late.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Name and image certainly do sell BMWs'.

What I meant was, makes in the league of Rolls and Bentley sell cars for their name most of all, so they could get by without the newest technology and still be revered as the finest cars.

No one goes to buy a Rolls caring how many valves the engine has, what kind of mileage it gets, what kind of child safety features it has, or how many goofy things they can make the on-board computer do. Thats' what I meant by supposed " technology advances ". GM and Ford sell cars by hocking them as better than the last model, because they have no other selling points, and they sure aren't built with any special care. But that is exactly what sells a Rolls or Bentley, absolute care in detail and construction, antiquated technology be damned.

Fine German components may make for an even finer automobile, but in the long run, they really didn't need to be even finer, and German components are not what is selling the Rolls and Bentley. For that we have BMW and Mercedes.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i'd have loved to see BMW make thier own super luxury line, but they didn't, they bought a name, so they have bmw engineering and rolls character and name. Sure it isn't pure as either, but my guess is that it will sell more cars, bettter cars, just not purely rolls cars.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

I did call the Silver Seraph German, on accounts of the stuff you mentioned. It's been German for a while, although at least Bentley had the good sense to drop the B.M.W power and revert back to the 6.75 litre engine when customers debated it's 'Bentley-ness'. Shame two of my country's greatest motoring names have now been destroyed. :(

You might be surprised to know that in a recent survey (I think it was J.D Power), the B.M.W 3-series came out the worse for wear, having the likes of Jaguar no-less beating them on reliability. British Leyland are responsible for tarnishing the quality image of British cars, and they've never recovered, but it's now thirty years later. I don't think there is really a car that is 'unreliable' any more. Not like they used to be. Everyone has caught up to Japan. Britain has some of the most efficient production plants in Europe, and the cars coming from them are reliable. Land Rover still do have problems - minor problems - with trim and fitting, but you could take a Defender around the world and totally thrash it, and guess what? It'd return home in one piece.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

The retooled the plant that makes the discovery for the 2003 model year, and claim that fit and finish quality has improved over 50% from the previous year. I wouldn't doubt it. My land rover has been a phenomenal car. We love it.

Our Jaguar X-Type (a very ford corrupted Jaguar) has given us issues with its numerous computer systems, but nothing mechanical as of yet. The trunk has never closed correctly even from the factory. The dealer has tried twice to fix it. Next time I take it in, I'm demanding a new trunk lid.

From what I've heard and read, the S-Type is even worse for quality.

The XJ and XK rate very high, and I would never doubt their quality in any regaurd.

I don't see the BMW engine as beeing a bad thing, but whatever.

the bentley may be more british, but the rolls is faster, smoother, more responsive, quieter, and more fuel efficient.

there's your trade off.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

It's easy to sum up the difference - Bentleys are for driving, Rolls-Royce' are for being driven in.

You demand that boot lid next time you go in (which by the sounds of things won't be long!). I've heard of S-Types being impeccable, so I guess it's the luck of the draw. It sounds like you drew the short stick with your X though. That's exactly why I hate computers in cars! It's a car, not a game boy.

The B.M.W engine isn't a bad engine; quite the opposite, but many people feel it has no place in a non-German car (like me, but then you'd guessed that already), more so in a £250,000 one. It's not like the Phantom is a bad car either, it's very good. It's just not a Rolls'. They are making a Corniche-type car from the Phantom and sharing the bits in that too.

Something that'll probably please you - word is that the next generation S-Type (2007) will use the ZF active steering system that's currently an option on the 5-series. :roll: Maybe that will be one less area the S-Type has issues with thereafter. I wonder if it'll find its way onto the Phantom too...?

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

the ZF active steering is amazing.

The X-Type got what is about the worst possible review for the 2002 model year by consumer reports. The S type faired better, but still riddled.

I'm sure 2003 and 2004 will be better I'm sure. It's a great car when it works.

i think with a 5.7 seccond 0-60 run, the rolls is plenty a driver's car.

maybe not as much as maybach, but still good for it.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

I hope the ZF active steering in the S-Type remains an option and not standard, otherwise I'd be put off buying one straight away!

I'd never have thought of the Maybach as a driver's car - all the fun is in the back, wherein they've stuffed a branch of an electrical store. Besides, it's a bit too long and heavy to be a driver's car anyway, isn't it?

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Fox, I'm curious, You have an X-Type but testify that it recieved poor reviews from Consumer Reports, is of questionable quality in places, and is very Ford corrupted. Why did you spend your money on one?

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

For $43,000, we could have had a comperably equipped A4 3.0 Quattro or 330Xi, C320 4Matic wasn't out yet.

All of the first drives in motor trend, road and track, car and driver before it came out said it was the new segment leader, the first car to go toe to toe with 3 series, said it was amazing. I bought mine the first week it was on sale. It is a beautiful car. the exterior styling has more presence than any other car in the segment, the interior is roomy (except for the back seat), leather is soft (well, it IS connolly), the woods are attractive. The AWD works well, and it accelerates very well. Hanlding is tight.

The trunk not shutting unless slammed does bug me. Mine having reliability issues I attribute to mine being only the 2nd PhilPenn Jaguar had sold, i got it early. Mine was the only one around when we got it, and it got looks.

I would have had seccond thoughts if i had known about the reliability issues. I'll admit that 330xi and A4 have better automatic transmissions, quattro may be better, but i have 0-60 on both of those, and my slalom is very competitive.

I like the car, it is elegant. Once the kinks get ironed out, I'm sure it will be a great car.

The engine doesn't feel ford (it just says so about 10,000 different places)

I guess we just fell in love with it. I might buy another in a few years after they get their issues worked out (and they get a half way decent manual)

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

Bad luck on that score - Jaguar are reluctant to give their cars manual transmissions as they'd only sell in small numbers; Jag drivers prefer automatics (and it puts money on re-sale value). I'm not entirely convinced, though. I'm sure there are plenty of potential customers that have bought a 3-Series instead just because it has a manual gearbox as standard.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

no, X-Type is offered with a 5spd manual. It is a no cost option on the 3.0 I bought. I originally intended to buy a 3.0 5spd manual with the sport package. Then I drove the car. It has the worst shifter since I had a '92 saab 900. It is truly grusome. I then decided the auto was superior (well, family members decided for me)

That said, it is faster to 60 than a 330xi or A4 3.0 with an automatic, it has a much larger trunk, superior leather seats, a more elegant interior (well, as long as wood is your thing). It does give up some ergonomics and functionality to the germans, but a lot of that it britsh character (like the J-Gate shifter). Overall, we're happy. I just wished it had a good shifter on the stick.

imported_Aston Martin
Geschrieben

Yes, on the X and S lower models. There's a distinct lack of any manual transmission on the top end models and no option on the XJ and XK. I think the manual option on the X and S also has something to do with the fact that fitting an auto as standard would push the price up in a competitive market sector.

If Jaguar were keen on manuals then the XK models would have this at least as an option, but the J-gate is standard.

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