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Official numbers of the BMW 850i

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GIR
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Does anybody have the official numbers of the BMW 850i that were built in 1991 / 1992? I'm looking for power output, fuel consumption and if possible a dynoprint.

And now we're on the subject does anybody know if BMW ever made a 850i M?

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thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

Engine:

Type: V12

Size: 5.0L

Power: 296hp @ 5,000rpms

Torque: 332ft/lb @ 3,900rpms

Layout: SOHC - 24V

Fuel Economy: 12/18 (AT) 12/19 (MT)

Redline: 5,500rpms

Shut-off: 6,000rpms

Curb Weight: ~4,175lbs

good luck on getting the dynoprint, most enthusiasts go for the CSi model, which was later on - and had a different engine (sorta)

GIR
Geschrieben

Well here's the deal. I found this 850i, 6 gear manual, full option. It's in tip top condition, interior and exterior, the engine looks and feels okay, always had it maintenanced at the dealer, 2 previous owners, maintenance logs come with it, checked the logs the car never had any mayor failures. Build year 7-1991 and in the last 12 years it has run 183.000 km. The only mods made to it are the Koni sport shocks.

The guy is asking 11k euro for it, which is a okay price, but I think I can bargain with him to drop it a little.

42616.jpg

There are just 2 things wrong.

The engine has a M badge on it and he tried to sell it off to me as a 850i M.

The car is 12 years old and has run 183.000 km, maybe pay more and have a car that's a little younger, like from 1995.

I was thinking of buying this one untill next year so I can get rid of the rental. Funny thing is that I'm looking for a CSi but I just can't seem to find one. Are these cars so good that nobody wants to sell them?

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

don't trust people trying to fake ///M. The CSi is a much better car, more than 1.5 secconds faster to 60, if prices are even to the US, 11,000 EU isn't a bad price.

GIR
Geschrieben

Look what I found:

http://a169.apm.etc.tu-bs.de/e31/mpegs/EuroOnEngine.mpg

The guy balances a euro coin on the engine and then revs it up. Just amazing how smooth that V12 is.

Anywayz, this engine also has a M badge on it, but it's a CSi. I'm confused here.

/edit:

Okay here's what I found:

As expected, the 850CSi makes no exception in having several names. In this case, the term M8 is mentionned on and on again. And it's correct. The 850CSi is a real M-car. It does not only have an M-bred engine (type S70, the S indicates M-origin) but has been manufactured by BMW M as well, according to the VIN which starts with WBS (BMW Motorsport) instead of WBA (BMW AG). This is mentionned in the papers as well. But although the papers say that the correct model name is BMW M8, the car has been enhanced only moderately by the M-Division, compared to the real M8, which remained a prototype only.

So the engine in the 850CSi was made by BMW M (and thus had the M badge) but the engine in the 850i was made by BMW AG. There is no way the M badge could be on an engine in the 850i. There is something fishy about this car, I think I'll pas.

Also I found this bit of info, never knew there was a M8 prototype. I bet that car would have been amazing with a price tag along the lines of the McLaren F1.

The BMW 850CSi is a detuned version of the M8 which has never been produced and remained a prototype only. The M8 should have been built in a consequently lightweight manner in order to be a 'Ferrari-Killer'. The specially developed 550 hp engine has never been used except in the prototype - of which only one exists. But with the support of McLaren the M8 engine was transformed into the power plant of the McLaren F1 super sports car. At the time of development of the M8 there was virtually no market for such a car, so the BMW manager cancelled the project.

The M8-Prototype is perhaps the best-kept secret of BMW. Absolutely no one must see it or can get information, by order from the general manager himself. Questions from motorsport magazines remain unanswered as well. The car is locked away in the so-called Giftschrank, which could be translated as 'poison-storage'. According to BMW it is hidden behind lots of boxes anyway and will be destroyed in the near future as the 8 series doesn't exist any more and neither a successor.

The Prototype has never been road safe (even the headlights were missing as you can see in the picture) and was only loosely patched together, which is the reason why it is not presented in their museum. It's not even good for that ...says BMW.

Yes, the papers of an 850CSi say, it's an M8, but that's not of much use if you know what it could have been. What the S70 engine is capable of speaks for itself. See the world record run of the McLaren F1. The guys at McLaren say they could get 1000 hp at 9500 or 10000 rpm from the engine.

I wonder how they made it run 10000rpm. I mean just a well balanced shaft alone wouldn't do it. Why hasn't anybody else tried to reconstruct this engine? I think I'm going to make it a personal project or something.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

the S70 is sufficently well balanced that that shouldn't be the issue. Issue being keeping it together. The crankshaft in there is not rated to more than 8,000rpms, so if you want to be turning a safe 10, that has to go. To keep the car breathing, high lift camshafts are needed. The S70 has different heads than any M8 would have had, but they are pretty good all the same. Also, a new computer would be needed, which would have a fuel map capable of supporting that kind of revs.

GIR
Geschrieben

I've been up all night thinking about this, my girlfriend even demanded that I sleep on the couch because I was keeping her up.

Here's what I have in mind. The V12 is naturaly well enough balanced to get it running a safe 8 to 9 krpm. The biggest problem is air, the move from 2 to 4 valves per cylinder and a highflow intake/outlet should be sufficent.

The move from 2 to 4 valves is going to be the hard part. You'd either have to redesign the complete head, including VANOS, from scratch and find somebody skilled enough to CNC it for you or you'd have to have a friend at BMW M who's willing to dig up the designs and CNC the parts in his spare time.

Increasing the bore and stroke a little should account for some more power, not hard todo.

The ECU should be able to handle the new engine, the 3d map is going to be changed and supplemented accordingly. The main unit is going to be reprogrammed aswell to remove the speedlimiter and set the fuel cutoff at 8k rpm.

There's nothing wrong with the gearbox, a 6 speed will do. Optionally you could swap the 850 3.15 differential with a E34 M5 3.91 differential.

I think it would be cheaper and faster to find a crashed McLaren F1 and pull the engine out that one.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

how many crashed mclarens are there sitting around with engines still in them?

stealing that beast isn't an orignial idea.

You know with the right cam, those 2V/Cyl heads will get flow going up to 8,000. It is a lot of work to do 4V/Cyl heads. That V12 is sufficiently complex (it has cylender deactivation for limp home) that doing custom heads would get interesting.

What you could do.......... Get your hands on the new direct injected 6.0L V12 Valvetronic (I don't know where the hell you'd get one, but still).

If you had a rev-happy engine, you'd almost have to switch to the 3.94, the 850 is geared very very tall right now.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

If you are intent on finding an 850CSi I don't see why it would be so hard to find one. ( especially in Europe ) Surely you could locate one for sale on the web.

And as for the price of that silver 850, 11,000 euros os a friggin' steal!

GIR
Geschrieben

@Cable: Yeah I know 11k euro is a steal, but I just don't trust it. I mean the M badge, the price, something is wrong.

I thought I would be able to find a CSi in no time but no dice. The mayority of the cars on sale are 840Ci/850Ci, you know the 1993 model with the dreaded auto tranny. A 850i here and there but no 850CSi, I can't explain it aswell.

@Fox: Well the idea is to upgrade the original engine in such way that it performs just as well as the engine in the would be M8, while keeping the BMW characteristics. The engine in the F1 is the same engine that was going to be in the M8. I was even thinking of making upgrade sets and selling them, altho the market for such a set is very small. BMW produced a total of 22800 850's from which just 1510 are CSi.

Just imagine, a BMW M8...

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

I think BMW will slap an M badge on any of their cars if you really want them to, I've seen one on the back of a 735i. If it's on the engine it was probably just put there by an owner.

If only 1,510 Csi models were made it wouldn't suprise me if almost all are in the U.S.

I found one for sale on my first search at MunitechMotorsports.com, but then thats in 8) California 8) . Good luck in your search.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i am sure you can find one in the fatherland, i don't know what the car scene is like in holland though.

GIR
Geschrieben

To give you some idea on what I've found so far.

http://zoek.autotrader.nl/cgi-bin/search?locale=atnl.CARS.1&country=NL&currency=EUR&make_id_EQI=BMW&model_EQS=8-serie&keywords_LKSPLIT=&specified_price_GT=0&specified_price_LT=0&SUBMIT.x=27&SUBMIT.y=7&bodytype_EQS=0&fueltype_EQS=0&colour_EQS=0&year_GT=0&year_LT=0&mileage_GT=0&mileage_LT=0&geolocate=0&postcode=&orderby=neg_price&source_EQS=0

Everywhere I look it's the same, lot's of 840/650 Ci with auto trannies some 850i's and no absolutely no 850CSi. I've found couple of website that belong to people who own 850CSi but nobody is selling.

nickmp0wer
Geschrieben

The engine of the 850csi was actually produced by bmw motorsport

P.I.M.P
Geschrieben

The 850csi made 372hp at 5300rpm and 402lb/ft of torque at 4000rpm.0-60 in 5.9(which for '94 was REALLY quick)seconds. Top speed was limited to 155mph. Cars such as AMGs and other Mcars have only recent been able to beat this.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i've heard the number 5.2 secconds 0-60 for the 850CSi.

And that was lightening for that sized car.

P.I.M.P
Geschrieben

thats probably with a supercharger put in. There is no way a 4000lb(1816kg)car with even a naturally aspirated v12(except ferraris) can have those kinds of numbers. Even the 2002 S600 with a NA 367hp V12 took 5.8 seconds.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

uh, yes, yes it could and did. Factory number was 0-60 in 5.4, and mags have had it go it as quick as 5.2. And what makes you think ferrari makes an engine better than Motorwerks? You know the engine in 850CSi was an M-Power motor right? The reason 850CSi was faster than the Mercedes CL600 is that is was lighter, and engineered for performance over cushiness.

P.I.M.P
Geschrieben

Have you ever been to http://www.bmw850.de ? I mean as much as I love the 8, stock, the "M8" could not hit 60 in 5.4

GIR
Geschrieben

And where on the site does it say that? The only info that site has on the M8 is the following:

The BMW 850CSi is a detuned version of the M8 which has never been produced and remained a prototype only. The M8 should have been built in a consequently lightweight manner in order to be a 'Ferrari-Killer'. The specially developed 550 hp engine has never been used except in the prototype - of which only one exists. But with the support of McLaren the M8 engine was transformed into the power plant of the McLaren F1 super sports car. At the time of development of the M8 there was virtually no market for such a car, so the BMW manager cancelled the project.

The M8-Prototype is perhaps the best-kept secret of BMW. Absolutely no one must see it or can get information, by order from the general manager himself. Questions from motorsport magazines remain unanswered as well. The car is locked away in the so-called Giftschrank, which could be translated as 'poison-storage'. According to BMW it is hidden behind lots of boxes anyway and will be destroyed in the near future as the 8 series doesn't exist any more and neither a successor.

The Prototype has never been road safe (even the headlights were missing as you can see in the picture) and was only loosely patched together, which is the reason why it is not presented in their museum. It's not even good for that ...says BMW.

Yes, the papers of an 850CSi say, it's an M8, but that's not of much use if you know what it could have been. What the S70 engine is capable of speaks for itself. See the world record run of the McLaren F1. The guys at McLaren say they could get 1000 hp at 9500 or 10000 rpm from the engine.

Note where it sais: "The M8 should have been built in a consequently lightweight manner in order to be a 'Ferrari-Killer'".

And there are suped up 850CSi's around which can do near 5 0-60.

V12sNuthinElse
Geschrieben

are they serious about the engine making 1000 horses at 10,000 rpm?? if so this is hands down the most incredible and capable engine in the world, someone please confirm this by telling me that they've heard this somewer else too, cuz i find it a lil hard to believe but i want to believe it, i'll never doubt the power of M///

GIR
Geschrieben

Do the math yourself. If the F1 LM can do 680bhp at 6k2 rpm then it would do 1000bhp at 10k rpm.

V12sNuthinElse
Geschrieben

wat kind of verification is that? there are engines that make 300 horses at 3000 rpm, and that may even be their peak hp, and then the horses jus fall from there as the revs go up cuz it was the engine's peak output, unless u'r completely right and i'm jus not getting the message i think my argument here is correct, please verify again

GIR
Geschrieben

You're talking about trucks right? Cause I don't know any other situation where you would want an engine like that.

Anywayz if you would have a properly balanced camshaft you could make it run 10k rpm which also means you shift the torque over the whole range. You would just shift everythign from the low end to the mid and high range. But it would also mean that you would get more bhp.

Like you can see bhp isn't really a usefull figure the determine a cars performance.

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