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BEAMERS OR BENZ!!!

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BEAMERS BENZ I PERSONALLY WUD HAV 2 SAY BENZ

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izzyloveslizzy
Geschrieben

You gotta be joking. This goes far beyond simple left and right, or black and white, or yes and no. The search for the truth when it comes to "Benz vs BMW" is like the search for the holy grail. Dude, can you at least give a reasonable level of support for why you'd pick one over the other?

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

Mercedes Benz is Baden Wurtenberg solid, a luxury car, powerful and calm under any condition, but when it all comes down to it, Merc always goes in favor of luxury over sport. BMW is Bavarian sporty, they are all performance, feel, and image. When it comes down to it, nothing is more important than sport. To say which is better comes down to what matters more - luxury or sportiness? It depends who is driving it. Me, I'll go for the bimmer every time.

izzyloveslizzy
Geschrieben

Well I think sport is almost BMW's identity (of course that's not the only thing they're going for when they make their uber cars). MB on the other hand, as you said, is more about elegance and luxury (though they're actually overshadowed by BMW and trying to catch-up to the Munich brand in many different aspects). I'd also have to agree with Fox on the sportiness, and that I'd also go for the Bimmers because of what I personally want in a car. But that doesn't mean if I wanted luxury I'd necessarily go with an MB. I'd probably buy a BMW 7 the first chance I got. I love that car (I've even grown to love the rear lights, yes) and it's all luxury and technology. Now if BMW can implement the comfy-ness and equipment on the 7 into the 3 and 5 and other model ranges as well, it'd be much much easier for me and most other people to just forget about MB altogether. Only problem with BMW's is their damned lack of proper head-room (which automatically takes a big bite out of the luxury factor in most bimmers, and becomes more uncomfortable; what surprises me is that in Germany the average height of a person is well over 6'0", which means they can REALLY use more head-room..., so BMW's must be made for Eastern-Asia then, I guess! :-? ). Let's not forget that in some respects a comparison of BMW and Benz may be Apples to Oranges, but for the sake of the argument we'll assume not. Having considered the above, I'd still go for a BMW - as long as they don't screw with the exterior styling of current and future BMWs TOO MUCH....

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i agree with the room thing on bimmers. I love the cars, but I am nearly 6'4", and don't fit into the 3 series E46 comfortably. Oddly enough, my E30 has enough room for me, The room issue with the E46 is what caused me to get a Jaguar X-Type 3.0 over a 330xi. A number of people I know refuse to get mercedes because they think they are "old people cars". While they have definately gotten sportier, they still have the stigma attached to them.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

I have experienced no real headroom problems in my E36 with a moonroof and I am 6'6". I suppose it helps that I move the seat back so far I turn my head and am looking out the rear door window.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

I drove an E36 M3 the other day. It was generally tight, but not too bad. The big problem with me is headroom, even my little E30's driver seat slides so far back I can't touch the pedals, and am for intensive purposes in the back seat. The E46 for some reason just feals tight to drive, there isn't a lot of room to move behind the wheel. Maybe it is just me, but I couldn't get comfortable in the 330xi we were test driving. The Jaguar X-Type 3.0 fits better, and is a pretty nice driving car - the engine is incredible, torque builds instantly from idle - and it keeps screaming all the way to 7,000. It is nice!

Kevin321
Geschrieben

The Ultimate Driving Machine (BMW), will always

be my pick. :lol:

Kevin321
Geschrieben

BMW BMW BMW BMW BMW BMW :D:):D

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

you are pretty one sided.

izzyloveslizzy
Geschrieben

I'd have to agree with the "old people" thing. Image can be a cruel mistress, and if there's one thing Mercedes-Benz wants people to stop associating with it's brand models (except maybe for the S-class) is the old image. That's as bad as Skoda's image of a "cheap car manufacturer" playing up to VW's rules. Skoda makes great cars, but it is sometimes viewed as the Czech Republic's version of Kia. Can't say I blame the average mad-max-type car buyer for still thinking MB's are for old dudes. But it's not all like that either. I don't know of any other car company that has released a gorgeous high-end roadster in 300HP, 400HP, 500HP, AND 600HP, and still shooting for a 700HP version driven through an independently-designed 7-speed short-throw auto. That's gotta tell you something about the sportiness of the brand. And if that doesn't do it for you, I can name at least 5 or 6 different Mercedes-Benz tuners that make your "old-looking" grampa-class MB S-class into a rocket. That's what AMG, Brabus, Renntech, and Karlsson hope to accomplish with help from modified styling aftermarket producers such as Lorinser. And they're almost guaranteed to succeed. They ARE, afterall, German. Moreover, I personally wouldn't worry about Mercedes-Benz and it's "image" problem for too long (instead I'd worry about whether BMW can make it through puberty and mature without braking it's leg in the process; they seriously need to get their act together), though they still do seem to have trouble shaking that thing off. I do recall my brother telling me the other day that as high-tech and uber as the CL-class is, it still looks like what a 60 year-old retiree would drive. I don't agree with him, but I see where he's comin' from.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

GIR is a young guy, he had an S-Class. If i were frickin loaded, I'd have a CL600.

I just think that BMW tunes their cars for the performance feeling as a primary concern, to mercedes, it is there, only seccondary.

The C-Class doesn't compete with a 3 series, just not good enough yet. E-Class finally is threatening 5 series, and once the freak shock factor of 7 wears off, they'll have it going on.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

BMW make it through puberty and mature without breaking it's leg in the process? Where does that shit come from? BMW is the experianced athlete with the young spirit, slapping the old man from Stuttgart into shape. And I have to say, the old man is making pretty good progress. He still needs to get on a good diet though :wink: .

kleinefisch
Geschrieben

E class is not threatening with the 5 series, its walking all over it. The E 500 destroys the 540. The E 55 beats anything that BMW has to offer. The 5 series needs the sport package to look good, the E-class just does that naturally. And everybody always compares the two marques based on the M and AMG. AMG is the M killer, hands down. Also, BMW has absolutely no idea on how to make nice interiors. They use plastic way too much, and the dash is just jarring to the eyes. Mercedes sets the standard for luxury and making the driver feels at peace. On top of that, theyre in my opinion, better sports cars. BMW doesn't even have many high end sporty cars. They have the 760, and thats it. It goes from M5 to 760, nothing in between. And the Z4 is more of a S2000 killer that SL competitor. With Mercedes, you have the CL, S, and SL all with a 600 and AMG option, soon 65 options as well. Mercedes offers AMG on every single Model line, (thats what, all 9 models), BMW has M badges on two. There is no way that BMW is better. True that Mercedes puts luxury before sport, but when they're still far better is performance than BMW, whats that say about BMW?

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

It says that maybe BMW is a little more selective about what they decide to put out. Pick any Benz, besides the SL none of them have a name you would recognize unless you were really into Benz. Their model line-up is saturated with cars that are not much different from eachother.

You are comparing the new E-Class with the 5-Series that has been around since 1997. And speaking of plastic, you have to be willing to spend quite a bit of money before " leather dash " becomes a reality on a Mercedes. In every sense of the word, AMG is the big lug in the ring with a power punch, M is light on it's feet, got moves like lightning. To borrow a famous quote, M " moves like a butterfly, and stings like a bee! "

The Z8 as I recall was a high-end sporty car. You said BMW has no high end sporty cars, just " M5 to 760, nothing in between ". You should know that just about every car BMW makes is a sporty car, the same cannot be said for Mercedes. Everything from base 5-Series on up can be considered " high end ". The 760 Is really a luxury sedan anyway. And what is jarring to your eyes is Bangle, not BMW.

Your belief that Mercedes are " better sportscars " is absolutely absurd. I'll take a 540 Sport or M3, you take any Benz of your choice, standard or AMG, meet me on a nice handling track, and we'll see about that.

All that Mercedes ego is out in full force now that they have all this twin turbo V12 stuff coming out. BMW has yet to bring out their newest arsenal, so just hold your horses big shot.

kleinefisch
Geschrieben

Woa, I wasn't putting anybody down. Calling me a big shot is not necessary.

The Z8 as I recall was a high-end sporty car. You said BMW has no high end sporty cars, just " M5 to 760, nothing in between ".

Well, its true, since the Z8 isn't produced anymore, BMW has no high end sporty cars. I agree with you that all BMW cars are sporty, but that doesn't make a difference. I also agreed previously that Mercedes isn't all about sport, but you can specify performance in every model, because some people don't need or want sports cars, which is actually quite smart of MB because it broadens their market. And who really cares about name recognition. How many regular people have heard about Koenigsegg? Probably none, that doesn't mean its not a supreme car. And the new SLR is something BMW can't touch yet, as you said, BMW has yet to bring out their newest arsenal, so until they do, you should hold your horses.

izzyloveslizzy
Geschrieben

These are all mere opinions about which (MB or BMW) are the "sportier brand". And I have my own. But there is no line, and there is no benchmark, and there is nothing by which to judge and categorize either of the two. Their goals are somewhat different: BMW is known as being the sporty brand, and wants to stay that way, while at the same time trying to inject more luxury into every model line. Mercedes, on the other hand, has the crown when it comes to luxury, but the brand has it's sights set on owning the "sportiest car" title. Neither of the two are too far from their goal but BMW is still the sportier of the two by popular opinion. By actual measured performance numbers, that's another story. The best Motorsport Beemers (3 and 5) can do 0-62MPH in 5 seconds flat, and that's with the aerodynamics and performance packages and special factory sports kits. AMG Benz models on the other hand (and yes, there are many of them) can get sub-5 0-62 times, and on the highest end models, AMG has recently decided to remove the 155.376MPH speed limiter. That's something BMW doesn't plan or even like to do, apparently. So it's obvious that BMW will lose ultimately, if it doesn't take any serious steps in preserving it's once-famous lead over the other brands and notably over MB.

As for which of the sedans is better (5 series or E-class), right now the E60 5 series looks like it's got one foot on the gas pedal and the other on Benz's neck. But I should still admit that the E-class is the favorite for many, simply because it has more rear seating leg room. And that seems to be enough for some. Of course, the new BMW E60 5 series has much more rear room than the previous 5 series. And similarly, in keeping with THEIR new-found desire to have a sporty muscle-car image, MB keeps adding newer E-class models and increasing power, while AMG (according to rumours) is planning on a super-tuned Diesel for the S-class and the E class (and possibly for the CLE).

As for BMW maturing..., LateNightCable, I didn't mean BMW is a new company and hasn't learned what to do yet. It just looks like BMW once knew what it was doing, and then lost it's focus, and now needs to regain it.

It's true that BMW has only 2 M cars, but there are more on the way. Come fall 2K4 there will be 5 or more M's in the Beemer line-up. There will be the M1, the M2, the M3, the M5, the M6, and possibly an M4 (a Z4 modification of sorts). Hopefully there will even be an M7.

But my last word's for Benz: Keep rollin'! It's always going to be interesting in the German Auto market. The "old man from Stuttgart" is making it's age an insignificant factor. This "old man" just doesn't quit, and neither does it's Bavarian rival. Oh, and let's not forget that while these two duke it out, Audi is watching and taking notes with an evil grin on it's face. Hehehe! Eeeeeeexcellent!! (Or so I heard Audi say).

kleinefisch
Geschrieben

Audi has some serious potential. The RS6 is a monster. VW or not, Audi should show BMW and MB that they are serious contenders. They need to get rid of the image that people seem to have towards them when new Lamborghini's are created. I think the marriage of the two auto makers can prove healthy for both marques, and I hope to see it. It would be a serioustag team if Lambo started returning as riegning champion over all exotica, and if Audi began to dominate the mid level sports and luxury markets out there.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Kleinefisch, you were publicly degrading BMW as an inferior high performance car, I call people out on that. The fact that the Z8 is no longer produced is beside the point, I don't see Mercedes building anything like that, the SL is a high speed cruiser. BMW is a specialist, you don't need to check an option box to get " sporty ", it comes standard, all BMW customers tend to like that.

When it comes to name recognition, I'm not merely refering to floss factor, but the names of truly good cars tend to get around. " 3-Series " gets around a lot more than " CL " or " M-Class ".

The SLR was made with the help of McLaren, suggesting Mercedes can't do it on their own. The last time I checked, McLaren was seeking the assistance of BMW :wink: . Not only that, but the SLR hasn't even come out yet. So, do hold your horses.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

it's possible, no doubt, but BMW has the fact that they are indapendant and have something unique going for them, that and their huge running start in the sporty car market.

The little upstarts have lambo beat, hands down.

izzyloveslizzy
Geschrieben

I don't agree with that at all. Lambo isn't "beat hands-down". Not even close. Where do I begin? Wow. You underestimate Lambo far more than the average nay-sayer should.

Mercedes-Benz CAN do it all on their own, but it's obviously better to get help from other pros. And all for what? McLaren doesn't even get a badge to represent it at the rear of the SLR. It all looks like Benz. I don't know about what you think of that, but looks to me like Mercedes-Benz very well knows what they're doing. And the SLR is very close to being launched.

kleinefisch
Geschrieben

Im not trying to say that BMW's are completely inferior to, and not worthy of Mercedes-Benz. They are constantly pushing MB to do bigger and better things, and MB responds and pushes the limit, to which BMW replies. This is the cycle of progression in which great cars are made from both marques. I used to be a staunch BMW lover, but it seems that MB, trying to cut into the market has, for now anyway, beat Bimmer at their own game. With such a wide range of models, each of which has a spectrum of versions, from conservative, economic versions, to rippin sports versions, MB can offer anything to almost anybody, with $25,000 to $150,000 to spend.

In my opinion, the future designs for BMW may be too controversial for the market to accept, and it all comes down to the general consumer. The new MB designs in my opinion are far less controversial and more appealing to your average consumer with considerable money to burn. In no way am I trying to convey BMW's or their drivers as inferior to Merc's or their drivers. All Im saying is that right now, and in the somewhat forseeable future, Mercedes is more geared to please the general costomer looking for a sports/luxury car, and when you break it down, that is what counts the most.

Also, while BMW did make the powerplant for the legendary McLaren, AMG made the motor for Pagani, which while not the worlds fastest car is still arguably the worlds most inovative or at least respected car today. But, thats for another topic :D

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

I attribute any of BMW's possible recent misteps, to Chris Bangle, their new head of design, who hardly any true BMW lover likes, and the decisions of some top officials who are no doubt just business men, and not car people. This is in no way reflective of the basic BMW philosiphy, which continues to be very sound, and has always been focused primarily to a specialized audience. To remain a specialist, and still be a " superpower " means something is being done right.

I will always be a diehard BMW lover, and will ride their current design slump through it's end, I still believe no other Geman maker can make them handle like Bimmer.

The Pagani is innovative in it's stylish use of exotic materials, but I don't see how it's the world's most respected car today, but you did say " arguably " so you're right, we'll save that for another topic :) .

izzyloveslizzy
Geschrieben

Well, I think Kleinefisch is right on one thing. Mercedes is and looks to be the winner for now. they have more AMG models than BMW has M's, and they have more models, period. They have more diesels as well (even for the super-luxury class) and they try much harder than BMW. I think BMW needs to find (again) it's identity, and squeeze a good deal of brains out of their engineers and marketeers, and maybe they can get their act together. Afterall, they ARE the overall leaders, and I don't think they're going to stand arond for too long and watch as Benz takes the lead in every segment. BMW is almost guaranteed to continue doing what it's good at, and it continuously incorporates new innovations and ideas into most of it's model ranges. Take Hydroen, or the new variable-semi-power-steer system, for example. BMW is the first to come up with or incorporate these technologies into some (if not all, in the future) of it's models. And they now have the 1 series and it's some several billion different iterations coming out between now and 2005~ish, so I think Mercedes is actually going to be the one worrying, in a couple of years from now. And besides, even in all their existnig models, BMW still gets higher ratings from most magazines and websites than MB models get. A look at CAR magazine's indez of automobiles at the back (called "the good, the bad, and the ugly) reveals that almost every BMW get's five stars, while only a few Merecedes-Benz models get five stars, and the others lower ratings, even as low as 1 star (for their G-class, I believe). On the other hand, no BMW gets lower than 4 stars, and even THAT is a rare sight. If you ask me, MB is still the one that has to worry. As Kleinefisch mentioned, though, both are always going to be trying to counter each other and out-do one-another, so they will continuously get better and better. The BMW-Merc.Benz rivalry is arguably one of the biggest driving forces of the gigantic German auto industry, and it will continue to be the greatest factor for the continued success of the German auto.

Kevin321
Geschrieben

I have never have liked Mercedes

and I never will, BMW is the best so

forget the rest

:lol:

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