What is a Japanese Muscle Car?

[bleh]

upon further thought, i was not sure what would classify as a japanese muscle car. the gobs of power argument kinda gets tossed given the gentlemans agreement. so a point that 'there are no true japanese muscle cars' stands to question.

what is the definition of a muscle car? the style of the car? the time period and amount of crude power? must it be carburated? must it be a v8 and have massive displacement?

how would these requisites fit into the japanese makes?

i would think supra, skyline, z cars, and rx7 would be the closest. but if it must have massive amounts of displacement or 8 cylinders then i guess these guys are out aswell.

but then is there such a thing as a modern muscle car? somewhere for the 350z, sti, and evo to call home.

i think this is a good topic, since it is mostly subjective

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Hallo bleh,

 

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[iroc-z89]

the muscle car era, 64'-72, 73?

[bleh]

thats the era. so anything outside of that is null and void of the title?

what else qualifies?

[LateNightCable]

I wouldn't say the muscle car era began exactly in '64 since cars like a '63 421 Tri-Power Pontiac Grand Prix are pretty hot, and the 1955 Chrysler C300 with the first Hemi could lay claim to starting it all. But early 60's to early 70's is a good time frame for the classic muscle car era. Emphasis on classic, that was the classic era.

But muscle cars can be of any time, and of any origin the way I see it. The main qualification being only that they offer massive power and ussually high performance capability. They are the benchmark for which their peers aspire to.

When thinking of "muscle car" - think GM, Mopar and Ford first. But also think BMW M, AMG, and by extension Sti, Nismo, and Ralliart to name a few. By this criterion, a Japanese muscle car would be any Japanese car offering massive underhood power in relation to physical mass, no matter how it achieves this. The modern rally car and sport coupe/sedan extends the definition of muscle car to include "muscular moves" - which didn't really exist in the 60's. So America began the power craze. But Europe and Asia's greatest contribution to the muscle car movement - which has no international boundries, is the use of smart power. In other words, the intelligent integration of all dynamics into a single driving force.

Does this all make sense, I think it does.

[wEstSide]

Classic muscle cars were built from what is generally accepted to be 1964-1974. I'd say the muscle car deal started with 1964 obviously because of the Tempest Le Mans GTO. Pontiac fitted a rather large V8 engine in an otherwise pedestrian Tempest. I go by the strict rules that a muscle car must be midsized and have a high performance engine. Is there a Japanese muscle car? Not really. Some of the cars you named are probably too small to be considered muscle cars, and would be comparable pony cars. The Z, Supra, and RX-7 are all sports cars.

[iroc-z89]

i agree with westside....

When the GTO's died and the Chevelle became the 4 door wonder it is today and then then was completely killed off in 79? Chevelle= New Chevy Malibu, for the foriegn car guys.

But pretty much when the big blocks and the "high revving 7Krpm" small blocks died due to gas prices and emissions. The muscle car era died. (Classics are luxury and early 60's cars and earlier.) So do new muscle cars exist nowadays, I'll give it to the vette, but nothing else.

oh yeah westside I remebered what that car was, it is a fullsize car though. The impala back when it was rear wheel drive with a bbc. I saw one stock with sticky tires, it did a 45* angle and the whole frame twisted in the air.

Oh one of the reasons that muscle cars were exceptionally popular was the foriegn cars of the day, were junk, though datsun's were pretty nice and suprisingly stylish for a foriegn car during those days. As far as junk, I mean, foriegn cars were generally, (not all) very ugly. The euro cars weren't bad but the japanese ones were, ugh. The ferraris brand new, were falling apart; and thats a fact and it plagued ferrari from the late sixties to the mid seventies.

Believe it or not i was going to get a 72' ferrari beautiful car real cheap, like 14K and learned why it was so cheap, they break.

[LateNightCable]

Ferrari's of that era cost a fortune to maintain and repair too if you want them to work.

As for muscle cars, a '63 Grand Prix with a 421 HO Tri-Power ( 370hp. 460lbft/tq. which technically is more power than the GTO ever made most of the time ) is a certifiable muscle car to me. Officially you can say 1964 because of the GTO, and the term itself might have been coined then. But there were mid-size cars with performance on their minds before that. Heck, the Chrysler 300C was a large car with an available high performance package which gave it 390hp and a mandatory manual tranny, and that was in 1957. Who could say this was not a muscle car? And the only reason "pony cars" came about was because the Mustang was named after a horse, and they were reletively inexpensive. There is no breed of horse called a Z or Supra that I know of, and those cars are not cheap.

The Corvette is not really a "muscle car", it's a sports car. A 2005 Pontiac GTO on the other hand is a two door mid-size coupe with the same engine as the Vette. This is a modern muscle car. The Infiniti M45 is probably the closest thing Japan has to a muscle car. It's a large car with a 4.5 V8 pumping 335hp and 340lbft/tq. But somehow I don't think of muscle car when thinking of the M45.

If you think only in very strict terms, then yeah, muscle cars are a purely American thing. America cornered the market on large, fast V8 powered two-doors long ago.

[bleh]

yea i think of the corvette as a pure sports car now. the old stingrays would fall into the catagory right?

i understand that the rx7, z and supra are not true muscle cars back when they first came around. but what about the 1st and 2nd gen skyline?? that was definitely not compact, it was a midsize sedan for a while and had some punch, just not gobs. is it not a muscle car because it was never introduced to the states? it was alive in the era, just not here.

[iroc-z89]

The Corvette Stingray does fall into that category, but not always. Bleh, you know how you have those crazy lettering systems for engines, American Engines were always and by car guys are still measured in cubic inches, not liters. In 1968 there were at least 7 engines available for the camaro. The only difference in the camaro the front grill, the hood, and the badges. Some 1968 Camaros are 6 cylinders just like the original 1964 1/2 Mustang. (The Camaro came out in 1967, the firebird in 1968) At the time camaros and firebirds had completely different engines, chevy had the most popular big block which was the two versions of the 396 bbc.(big block Chevy) One was a high out put motor producing 375hp and it was underrated. The second 325hp. again underrated due to insurance prices on the rise in the 60's. This engine revved to 6500 rpm if i remeber correctly, while pontaics got the legendary 402BBP. Though some got the crappy 400sb. Other engines included the Race driven Chevrolet 302, the 327, the 350, the 396, the 396H.O. and the Corvette Stingray 427bbc, producing 475hp from the factory in 1967 which was later rated at a lower rpm and rated @ 425hp. The little tiny 302 which was the orignal Z-28 motor which ford copied(slightly different bore and stroke) to get into the Trans America Racing Series; was rated @ 190hp. it has well over 400hp @ over 7,000rpms. What did the RX-7 boast @ those times, it doesn't have to be an american car just be from that era. Because bleh a 350 isn't a muscle car its a grocery getter, and the 305 is a bored and stroked 262 original used in chevy trucks and the monza/ vega.

As far as when the muscle car era died, it was pretty much died by 73, i believe that is when the last big block rolled off the line, the 302 died in 1969. When The Trans Am series lifted its cubic inch limit from 305cid max to 350. And that has pretty much evolved into Nascar.

As of the 2005 model year yes it is just another pretty corvette with an LS2 engine. 400hp 400tq out of a 346cid engine. This July the corvettes will and i repeat will be competing with and destroying the viper. The Newer vette makes 505hp 470 ft lbs. of torque, it's top speed is well over 200mph the engines are hand built aluminum blocks with mostly titanium parts, the body is aluminum, and it weighs around 3200lbs.

Sorry about the long post.

[wEstSide]

You have to be on some damn good drugs to think that the Enzo only makes 400hp and weighs 4000lbs. Really, what are you on?

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Hallo bleh,

 

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[SERGIOE34]

I cant belive someone just compared a corvette to an enzo. is this a joke?

[iroc-z89]

what does it make? that is what they said on speed when they test drove it. Maybe they f-ed up because i remeber thinking those numbers were off but whatever. My fault for quoting.

[wEstSide]

You're probably thinking of the Ferrari Superamerica, which weighs quite a bit, but makes over 500 horsepower. Do you really think the Enzo would be compared to the McLaren F1 if it had only 400 horsepower? IT'S FUCKING CARBON-FIBER. For Christ's sake, the engine is a stressed member of the fuckin' chassis, and you're going to compare it to a Corvette with a FUCKING LEAF SPRING SUSPENSION?

By the way, I thought the Corvette still employed a few fiberglass parts.

[iroc-z89]

yeah that was a definite, wrong answer sorry about that. Just looked it up, 650 bhp at 7800 rpm and 485 lb.-ft. of torque at 5500 rpm, i really gotta start checking numbers and not quote magazines.

[iroc-z89]

westside calm down. I quoted someone that wasn't coming from me calm down

[iroc-z89]

fixed it better

[wEstSide]

Yea, I'm chill. I was just surprised that someone could mess that up. I do think the Z06 will be quite fast though. It will definitely give the Viper a run for its money.

[LateNightCable]

F-ing, F-ing F-ing, shame on you Westside.

The Vette suspension has evolved into a fairly sophisticated system. Some people dog on it because it retains a mono leaf spring, but it's really not justified. I only hope the Enzo motor is making more than minimum wage for working double duty.

As for a simple definition of "muscle car", it's fair to say that any car that is all motor could be one, everyone agree? Motor is muscle after all.

[wEstSide]

I know the Vette suspension is quite good, but it's still a leaf spring suspensions. The Mustang might have a more advanced suspension, but it still doesn't have an independent suspension. The Cobra had an independent suspension, and people literally complained.

[iroc-z89]

"Suspension, four-wheel independent: includes transverse fiberglass leaf springs"- gm...........please explain to me how in the.....Why does it still retain the leaf springs if it is independent?

Oh leaf springs aren't so bad think of the early corvair

[bleh]

a muscle car doesnt have to be all motor. big nasty roots style chargers were a hallmark of the era. right?

[iroc-z89]

no they weren't, just when forced induction was becoming popular and back then they didn't do a whole lot either, just gave a racer a slight advantage.

Turbos=diesel technology, and roots superchargers 1940's technology

[LateNightCable]

Why does it still retain the leaf springs if it is independent?

It takes the place of coil springs, of which the Vette ( C4 on up ) has none. They are compact and also provide a measure of roll resistance. A single (mono) leaf is lighter than two conventional coil springs and they don't wear out. The suspension itself is fully independant in every sense, and behaves just as it would with conventional coils. So it's hardly a pickup truck suspension by any stretch. Here is a pic of the C4 rear layout, showing the black mono leaf spring. It's worth noting that since the suspension is a more conventional independant setup in every other way, the Vette is capable of being retrofitted with coils as far as I know.

The Mustang retains a rigid axle mostly to keep costs down, being that it's mission is that of a bread and butter sports coupe, and partly out of the fact that some buyers actually like it.

American style muscle cars were almost always "all motor" or at least had sizable engines, and were never blown from the factory. A hallmark of an Asian muscle car though, if any - would most certainly be turbos.