740h

[Rishy]

any details on this car ?

as in compared to its fuel powered brother how does the hidrogen powered engine perform ?

cheers

[Anzeige eBay]

Hallo Rishy,

 

kennst du schon 740h (Anzeige)? Dort ist vieles zu finden.

 

BMW Ersatzteile (Anzeige) | BMW Zubehör (Anzeige)

[thepolarfoxqx]

a project BMW has been working on a few years now, it is the 740i, but with a 4.4L V8 modified to burn hydrogen (which enhance output to approximately 300hp) and a chasis modified to take in a high pressure hydrogen tank (a cryo tank - in place of a trunk). It burns hydrogen just like any other car burns gas. This would be really neat except : A: hydrogen is very expensive to purify and store B: The cryo tank storage idea is a lot of trouble.

It is a neat concept though.

[Rishy]

well, was watching this documentary thing the other day and it shows hidro gas tanks all over germany and those bimmers using them....theyre moving over to London next...

what about pricing ?

[thepolarfoxqx]

that is actually pretty cool. I haven't heard of that yet, but that is neat. There is no such thing in the US. Here, car manufacturers are working on making their cars "flex-fuel" capable - meaning they can handle E-85 (85% ethanol (corn alcohol) - 15% gasoline.

[Rishy]

cool....if im not mistaken i think they goin to london then onto asia after that....

[izzyloveslizzy]

Kool! a Hydrogen-Powered BMW.... That would be uber.... Sign me up!

[izzyloveslizzy]

About this E-85, do you know if it's in Canada yet? Sounds like a good idea. I think they should make a similar mixture with diesel.

[thepolarfoxqx]

there is one for diesel, they call it bio-diesel, and it will run in any diesel engine. I don't know about E-85 ethanol gas in canada. Here it is heavily government subsidized, and because it is so ethanol rich, the octane levels are off the charts, and it is still cheap. I wish my car took it.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Yeah I think it's the same deal with the Can. Gov.. And btw I have heard of "bio-diesel" I just never figured out what it was for sure.

By the way, the newer version of the Hydrogen-powered 7-series concept is the 750H. Rumour has it that the engine makes a "clean" ~230HP+.

[thepolarfoxqx]

clean. My state has no emissions testing. I could rip my catylist, oxygen sensor, EGR, and any other pollution gear off my car, drive around pumping the air full of every hydrocarbonous gas you can think of and no one would care. A good freind of mine says "I used to hate envrionmentalists, but now I realize they're on my side, they are trying to save all the gas for me and my truck". Welcome to the USA!!!. I'd love Ethanol, but you won't get me into some underpowered hydrogen or natural gas car. On the off chance it explodes, I think I will stick with gasoline type cars. I drove an EV1 once, (electrical car). It was kinda neat. Not really fun, but pretty interesting.

I like ethanol, that is clean, and doesn't hurt fun factor. Hydrogen is pushing it though. I know too much about the properties of hydrogen to go along with it.

[Anzeige eBay]

Hallo Rishy,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema Zubehör für BMW (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

[izzyloveslizzy]

LOL! And they were bugging us with the Kyoto Protocol!

The only thing about Hydrogen that bothers me is it's containment and the price you might have to pay for that. Tell me what else seriously worries you about Hydrogen, Fox.

[GIR]

but you won't get me into some underpowered hydrogen or natural gas car.

Ever heard of G3? It preforms just as good as a gasoline car. My brother has a G3 instlation in his car.

[thepolarfoxqx]

no I haven't. I figured if anywhere would get good environmental technology, it would be holland. I have never heard of G3 being available here in the US. I would be impressed if it could deliver on that.

[GIR]

Well it performs just as good as a Gasoline car, I even say that it pulls more power on G3 but that has never been tested, the tax is way way lower but it does suck up huge amounts of natural gas.

One of the biggest draw backs is that it doesn't have a pump, it runs on the pressure coming from the tank. This in turn means that less gas means less performance. My brother never drops the tank below 1/2.

Anywayz if you'd make a gasoline car run on hydrogen it would theoreticaly have more power (which can be proven by the 740h which has more power then the 740i). Hydrogens biggest aspect is that is has a huge explosive power, that's what you need the big storage tank for. Not to store lots of hydrogen but to make sure it can survive a crash.

Tank full of Hydrogen + Spark = bye bye Highway.

Currently the biggest problem with hydrogen isn't the engines, it's the infrastructure. Once this is in place hydrogen prices will drop and usage will be stimulated. Take my word, hydrogen is the way of the future.

HYDROGEN SAFETY AND HANDLING

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If large quantities of hydrogen are used in the future for power generation, transport or any other function, issues of handling, storage and safety will arise. Currently hydrogen is handled by trained personnel and, as with all fuels, there is a requirement for public education before it can be widely introduced. However, there is no fundamental technical problem with transporting and using hydrogen. Indeed in the early to mid-20th century, large amounts of hydrogen and carbon monoxide were handled routinely by the public in the form of town gas.

Hydrogen safety

Hydrogen is the lightest of the elements, meaning that it dissipates rapidly in open areas and can migrate through very small spaces. It is a highly reactive element, combining readily with carbon or oxygen as well as other elements. It is also normally present only in gaseous form. These features mean that it can be difficult to handle hydrogen and to store it safely and effectively. The immediate dangers are those of fire or explosion, since hydrogen burns over a wide range of concentrations in air. It is almost impossible to detonate it unless it is in a confined space, since it dissipates so rapidly, and a hydrogen flame burns out quickly and radiates little heat. Sensors can be installed in enclosed areas to detect concentrations of hydrogen approaching 4% – the lowest point at which ignition can occur – in which case safety systems can be brought into operation. Systems already in use in laboratories automatically vent the gases to atmosphere; BMW’s prototype cars, running on liquid hydrogen, have windows and sunroofs that open if hydrogen is detected.

Hydrogen fires are potentially dangerous as they are invisible to the naked eye and can thus be stumbled on without warning, but in some respects they can be safer than fires involving conventional fuels. Hydrogen has a very high flame speed and dissipates quickly, so fires, even those involving liquid hydrogen, will burn out rapidly. Calculations suggest that in a vehicle fire involving gasoline the fire might burn for twenty or thirty minutes, where an equivalent hydrogen-fuelled vehicle fire would last 1-2 minutes. While hydrogen flames burn hot there is little heat radiation, so an object must be directly in the flame to be severely damaged. In addition, other materials near the flame are unlikely to catch fire themselves, reducing the danger of toxic smoke emissions and prolonged burning.

Detonation of hydrogen is dangerous but it is difficult to make a simple comparison with explosions from other sources. In general the blast energy from a hydrogen explosion will be less than from an equivalent source of equal energy content, though the form of propagation of the pressure waves will affect the actual outcomes of the explosion. Hydrogen explosions in confined spaces can cause significant damage, but this may well be less than from an equivalent amount of natural gas, for example. In addition, hydrogen is both non-toxic and non-corrosive. It does not pool at ground level like some flammable gases and, in the opinion of many experts, it does not pose dangers greater than other fuels, merely different ones.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the largest problem with procuring hydrogen is that to get it by itself takes twice as much power as you can get out of hydrogen, big problem. Safety is a huge concern. Hyrdrogen is way dangerous, and also way expensive. It has a very high energy density (power of combustion per ounce), but that is both an advantage and disadvantage.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Well, the first issue you mention is going to be solved if enough effort go into improving Hydrogen Technology, and if a large numnber of companies jump on the H2 BandWagon. That's likely to hapen in the future. The same problems existed for Petrol, as back in the day it was harder to get it, and the cost wasn't worth the energy you wouldget from it. But engines kept improving, and costs kept going down as well. Now it's global, and it'll be the same for Hydrogen. Let's be honest, Hydrogen engines aren't exactly at their best yet (or even close). We could still improve the hell out of HIC (Hydrogen Internal Combustion) engines.

[GIR]

As I understand the BMW 740h burns hydrogen in it's gas form, this because of the limitations in the cooling system. As everybody knows gas has a bigger volume then liquid. If somehow engineers could figure out a way to keep the hydrogen liquid until it reaches the cylinder it would result in a mayor boost because more hydrogen would fit in the cylinder.

[Gast MattKiott]

some pics :

World premiere in Berlin. 15 BMW 750hL in front oft the Brandenburger Tor

This is the BMW 745h, as launched on the 2001 Frankfurt Motorshow. The 745h is powered by a 4.4 litre hydrogen engine, hence the 'h'. This V8 engine produces 184bhp and is able to run on both hydrogen and petrol. This 745h is another step in the direction of hydrogen road cars.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Thanx for the pics, MattKiok. I already saw some myself the other day on BMW.de but they were kind'a different I think.

And GIR, it's obviously better to have it in a more condensed form, but once Hydrogen enters the cylinders it must already be in Gas form - also, the more hydrogen there is, the more Hydrogen there will be that will burn, which means more intense pressure and heat, and that's the same problem people have with increased cylinder displacement, turbo-charging, and Nitrous-Oxide injection. Not every engine is designed to withstand the intesnse beating delievered, and though I don't know the exact effects of Hydrogen in it's Liquid Form enetring the cylinders, I DO think it would be rough on your cylinder and valves to deal with that, which would mean they would have to be toughened up, and thus more weight would be added which would need to be taken care of with an extra boost in power either from extraneous and imscellaneous sources or from larger displacement, and the dirty cycle continues.

[GIR]

Well what I remember from science class is that hydrogen first explodes very agressively and then implodes. I remember one of the professors igniting a tube of hydrogen and first it made a very short "puff" sound and after that you could hear it implode (kinda sucking sound) and there was only traces of water left in the tube.

I'm very interested to know how they solved this imploding problem, cause when it implodes it sucks on the cylinder thus reducing power. My guess is they ignite hydrogen when the cylinder is halfway down. When it's halfway down the primary agressive explosion would push it down and the implosion would suck it up again.

Or another option would be to open one of the valves so the implosion wouldn't suck on the cylinder but suck in air.

I don't beleive heat wil be any problem cause hydrogen burns at a much lower temprature then other fuels, you could stick your hand into a hydrogen flame and never feel a thing or see a thing cause it also burns invisible (to the human eye). Well maybe it will be a problem because oil needs to reach a certain temprature and how about heating in the car?!

Maybe they reinforced the engine parts, maybe they dind't. I don't know. It's all guess work rightnow and I'm sure BMW will keep it a secret as long as possible so the competition can't get an edge.

Also another question. What about maintenance? I don't know many dealers or mechanics equipt with the knowledge and proper tools to maintain a hydrogen car. The risks are way higher, imagine getting some hydrigen on you! It would feeze a part of your body right of!

[izzyloveslizzy]

No I meant heat mainly from the intense pressure that would be created. Also the implosion problem would actualy add to that. But one other way they could fix this (or it could fix itself) is with continuous combustion. Continuous combustion would ensure that before the cylinder is being sucked back due to the implosion, the next explosion would occur and push it back again. It does sound more complicated that that though, and I'm sure it is.

LOL, Hydrogen wouldn't work like that. It's not Nitrogen, and though it is risky stuff, you're not likely to ever even get any Hydrogen on you. As far as maintenance goes, that's the exact same problem that BMW and other Hydrogen pioneers such as Ford are facing. The maintenance of a Hydrogen car is as big a question at the moment as the questin of "WHERE" you would actually get the Hydrogen. There are an estimated 15 Hydrogen pumps at the moment in all of North America that would be ready to serve the average person, and that's not nearly enough. This also means it's very expensive due to the fact that it's the early days for Hydrogen and you're not likely to find it in great abundance (the irony). A far shot (but one that would solve many problems here) would be if engines could actually suck Hydrogen in through the air intake (and Hydrogen is abundant in the Earth's atmosphere as we know) and it would make use of it right away. But that's impossible (at least for the moment (and it's obvious why). It's interesting technology though, and with future innovations (and the involvement of crazy flippin' people like BMW) HIC engines have a very good chance. Maybe this technology combined with future hubrids would do the trick.

Also, the question of water still remains. What happens to the H2O that might be left over from the reaction? Maybe the Peugeot H2O concept's engine could take care of this, as it runs on water! That would mean that the emmissions of the engine could be used to give the car more power. Hmm, I'm making myself think....

[GIR]

Here's another question. What happens when you run out of fuel on the road? I mean a stroll to the nearest gasstation with a jerry can is kinda out of the question.

Yes I know the 740h burns Hydrogen and Gasoline... but what when your car only burns Hydrogen.

Problems upon problems, we still have a long way to go.

[izzyloveslizzy]

LMAO! Yeah you're right! I'd like to see someone try to run to the nearest Hydrogen station with a jerry can of Hydrogen!

I don't know of any cars that are straying from the BMW path of "Hydrogen-Hybrid". But I don't think that would pose a HUGE probem anyway. I think Ford's Model U already does this. You can check it out for yourself. I'm not too sure. I know it's a super-charged Hydrogen engine in there though.

We sure DO have a LONG way to go....