Viper exhaust problems

[Gast ViperRacer]

Did somebody hear about exhaust problems? One of my friends told me that a famous car magazine wrote something about this. But he cannot remember what it was.

Thanks in advance,

VR

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Hallo Gast ViperRacer,

 

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[LOTUSV8]

Maybe he was refering to a few sissy Viper owners who complained the side exhaust on early Vipers were too loud. They switched to rear exhaust b/c it was quieter. The Viper is a thinly disguised race car and to tone it down like that takes away from its true meaning and spirit.(IMHO)

[thepolarfoxqx]

the viper is not a race car. it doesn't have the handling, refinement, technology or quality to come close. It's engine is essentially a tuned up version of the one in the Ram truck. It is not a tuned down racer. The 8.0L V10 is a race car engine in any way. The exhaust was loud - but part of the character, it sounded off because you were hearing a bank of inline 5 from either side. Keep this in mind - most race cars rev clean past 10,000 rpms, the previous viper was wheezing by 5,000, the new one won't make it to 6,000. The rear exhaust was chosen for many reasons - in fact the legendary viper tuner Hennessey actually says he is upset that the new viper has side pipes. There is a reason everyone else uses rear pipes. It is too bad Viper is so image conscious. Imagine what they could have with a highly tuned version of the new Hemi V8 under the hood, lower weight - and corvette like refinement. What is the point of pushrods in a sports car anyhow?

[LOTUSV8]

I detect a little anti-american sports car sentiment coming from your direction! First off the ram and viper engines share very few components and have LITTLE in common. The ran V10 really isn't that powerful.There is nothing wrong with push rod engines. The Z06 proved that a 3rd gen pushrod can and will embarass a wide array of imports and almost all domestics. The viper handles in way that will leave you in an enbankment if your not paying attention and that why the Z06 is the more driveable of the 2. Just because a car doesn't have pushrod or V-Tech written on it doesn't make it inferior. I think this section needs a mod that admires and understands American vechicles. Hennessey is a known crook and his name holds little value these days. Don't knock the SRT its a fine machine that will lay waste to most of the cars you admire. If your were in my area I'd willing to take the pepsi challenge with you. The notion that a car must rev to 10'000 RPMs to be powerful is ridiculus. Take the S2000 for example its peak power isn't really practical b/c it sooo high up in the RPM range. Revving prowess hold little weight. Its not how high you rev its WHERE your making the power at. Knock pushrods ALL you want, but you know the top American sports cars have almost NO competition in their price range and the tuners Viper and Vettes of the world are also some of the fastest.........

[thepolarfoxqx]

I have a few things to tell you:

A: I like american cars well, but they need to modernize - objectively they can't compete against technology 20 years ahead. Z06 lacks the refinement to justify a price north of 50k. The essential design is very much the same between Dodge V10s, yeah, they have slightly different heads and cams. Viper's is aluminum. That is about it. Hennesy made a viper 0-60 in 2.3 seconds. I don't know what are talking about in regaurds to him being a crook, but that has no bearing over his knowledge of viper. Even Shelby - who helped design Viper - and who has created the greatest american cars ever used an oldsmobile 4.0L V8 which is DOHC in his new Series One. Why are there no pushrod engines making 80hp/l?

B: Engines don't need to rev to 10k to work well. six and half is fine, seven is great, any anything above 7500 is a bit excessive. BMW makes a DOHC 4.9L V8 with Dual Vanos (which is far superior to VTEC by the way). It produces 394hp, 80hp/l - and it redlines at 6,600rpms. It allows a 3900lb M5 to run faster to 60 than a corvette LS1. It is also completely composed the whole way, no vibration or wild resonation along the way. The DOHC and SOHC layouts allow much flatter torque curves - more accleration p/ horsepower. They are more fuel efficent. You need only very basic understanding of engineering and physics to understand why this is. Variable valve timing allows for more power all over the band. You have to be nuts to think it is bad.

C: I am plenty pro american. I have god bless america stickers in the rear windshields of both my german and japanese cars. I use to have them in my british cars, but certain family memebers removed them. American cars are progressing forward. The new cadillac XLR is an amazing car, especially for riding on leaf springs. It goes toe to toe with MB SL500 no sweat. Its advanced engine which is all american (did I forget to mention that the V10 used in viper was modified to current form by lamborghini - chrysler used to own them. The first viper engines were even build in italy). I think that both Ford and Dodge have great modular V8 lines - both of whom have raised hp and lowered fuel consumption and displacement - and even adding low end grunt by moving to SOHC layout. Large displacement engines are heavy and inneficent. What may be america's greatest engine of the year is GM's 4.2L inline six - which is nothing short of a masterpiece - easily outclassing all of its V8 competitors. With a decent transmission and some weight reduction - their Trailblazer/Envoy could offer class leading performance. This motor just gives you a glimpse of what America can do with some good technology.

Maybe you should think more deeply before making charges. Despite all attempts at modernization, the basic design of both Viper and corvette's engines dates back over 40 years. It is time for some new blood.

[silvertabone]

American Cars may be slightly behind in technology ( I dont think that 20 years behind is accurate) but American cars are geared towards Americans, not Europeons. Americans dont particularly care about gas milage, gas is relatively cheap here. Americans typically lean towards big displacement, straight line acceleration. Not touring and circuit cars, so naturally, the cars in America are geared towards the majority of Americans. I, for example, prefer the power and growl of a big V8, whilst some others prefer the sound of a tuned 4.

You mentioned American car refinement, but that isn't at all what it is about. I personally could care less about the refinement of the interior or the smoothness of the shifting. I also dont think that $50000 is alot to ask for a Z06. Where else can you get a stock car capable of 0-60 in 3.9sec for 50g? Would I pay another 50 grand for refinement - Maybe, maybe not. Some people would, others wont, but that doesnt mean that one is wrong and one is right, its just preference. That $50,000 car can compete with a $250,000 Lamborghini - add on another $50,000 - and you can beat it. So, Im not sure how the Z06 is overpriced for the amount of performance on tap.

I have been to both circut and drag tracks hundreds of times, seen vipers, vettes, s2000's, Miatas, Ferrari's, etc. All these cars are extremely capable and worthy of praise, they all have their niche, and they fill it well. Bashing any particular country's cars is ignorant and a severe generalization.

[jRaskell]

Exactly what are you referring to when you say refinement anyways? The C6 corvette is actually a very refined sports car. Have you seen dyno's of either the LS1 or the LS6 engine? You can't get any smoother then those torque and horsepower curves. And the torque. Oh the torque. And I'm not talking about high RPM torque, I'm talking about torque from idle straight to redline.

And who cares about bhp per liter. Alls I care about is bhp, however it's obtained. You give me 400+ horsepower and I'm happy. I don't care if it comes from 4 liters or 5.7 liters. It's all the same in the end.

And handling. Have you even driven a C6? Much less an LS1? Let's just say that, for 50 grand or less, you aren't going to get a better handling vehicle. You may find something that handles just as well, or almost as well, but you won't find better, not in it's market category.

[djfux69]

the z06 does 0-60 in 3.9???? are u sure?? and i think that refinement would be getting the most hp per liter. im sure a 10 liter could bang out 400hp but its when a 4liter does it.... i think that that is refinement. i agree with fox on the price being a bit high for the car.. i dont think its a bad car, just overpriced... but as u say americans want straight line power... and they dont care how the get it....

just a personal opinion and i dont want anyone to get offended.... it does not take skill to floor it in an automatic in a straight line... skill comes when the curves come... and when those curves come... bye bye straight line power hello tree

again just my opinion no one take offense

[silvertabone]

Yep, the Z06 does 0-60 in 3.9sec.

http://www.supercars.net/cars/2002@$Chevrolet@$Corvette%20Z06g.html

or

www.chevrolet.com (just states under 4 seconds)

I do not take offense, and I doubt anyone else did. (hope Im not offending anyone either - just showing the other side of the field). But there are people out there that care for curves, and people that care for straight lines, and people like me who like both. Especially in the U.S. where most people spend alot of time on the Highway, which is where they most expect their performance. But to label the Viper and the Corvette as poor handling cars in also inaccurate. The Z06 pulls 1.04g, the Dodge Viper SRT-10 - 1.15g, BMW M3 - 0.91g, Porsche 911 Turbo (2000) - 0.96g, Ferrari 355 - 0.97g, Ferrari F50 - 1.03g, BMW M5 - 0.87g. Actually, It looks like the viper and vette are higher on the list than most others - Including the 911 turbo. Also, The Z06 is the lowest priced car on the list (comparable to M3), So Im not still not sure how it is overpriced. Is there a lower priced car that can outperform a 2002 Z06, I dont know, but if you do, let me know. I am open to learning a lesson, but the facts kinda speak for themselves.

[jRaskell]

I'm going to spit it out right up front and as bluntly as I can. The idea that higher hp/liter = refinement is a pure misconception, plain and simple. That being said, let me elaborate.

Simple things first. Horsepower is horsepower. It roughly equates to the amount of work that an engine is capable of doing. This work is generated by gasoline. You want 400hp, you need a certain amount of gasoline and air to reach that hp, completely regardless of the displacement of your engine. It is fundamental physics. A well published fact, the Corvette Z06 gets 28mpg highway (under normal driving conditions. Playing quarter mile practice on the highway will matter of fact hurt gas mileage on ANY car). With over 400hp on tap, you can still get almost 30mpg cruising with the Z06. Point me to a car that can beat that. You know what, I'll save you the trouble. 80k Porsche 911, makes 315hp. Much better hp/liter then the Z06. Published mileage is only 26mpg. Wait, that's less then the Z06, with more displacement, more horsepower, and less hp/liter. So please, explain this refinement concept to me again.

I actually had a few more points I wanted to make, but after writing this up, it gets what I'm trying to say across all by itself.

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Hallo Gast ViperRacer,

 

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[djfux69]

thats awesome that it can put out a time like that.. 3.9 is very respectable. im not sure but i thought that skid pad was how well the car can hold its weight in a curve.. and slalom was how well the car can shift its weight without it losing control... what does the zo6 do in the slalom?

[silvertabone]

The Cars above are very close in the Slalom, The Z08 @64.8, The Z06 @ 68.5mph, The Porsche 911 Turbo 68.6, Ferrari 360 68.9, and the Dodge Viper ACR did it at 70.8 mph and the Ford Mustang Cobra R was @ 69.4mph. So they are pretty comparable, but the Z06 and the Cobra R are the two least expensive cars in that group... Also, remember that this data is a side by side controlled test, there are some variances depending on track and weather conditions.

I couldnt find the SRT10 Data, but I have heard that it is comparable to the Viper ACR in Slalom, so its pretty high up there. But remember that both the skidpad and the slalom contain signals of cornering and handling performance, not one or the other.

[djfux69]

impressive times

i agree 30 mpg is good for a car with 400hp on tap but i was talking about the viper.. no one said that the zo6 had a bad engine.. but also which 911 are u talking about? i know that turbo decreases gas mileage significantly. after my car went turbo i have horrible gas mileage. but amazing hp/l. but are we talking about a fast car?? or a car that gets good mileage here?? i was talking about how the viper has a huge engine and with what it has it should produce more impressive numbers. not how good of gas mileage the zo6 has.

[jRaskell]

I'm just trying to understand your perception that higher hp/liter = refinement, and just what exactly that perception is based on. As far as American cars are concerned, I think it's this simple, High displacement high horsepower engines are cheaper and more reliable to maintain dollar for dollar. I am NOT trying to say European sports cars aren't reliable. I'm saying you pay for that reliability. DOHC and high tech engine management are complicated and cost money. Simple engineering mantra, complication = less reliability.

I would really like you to do a little more research and investigation into the Z06 LS6 engine. If you can look beyond the fact that it is a pushrod engine and this hp/liter metric (which overall has absolutely no bearing on, you will see it is a very refined and well developed engine in it's own right. I just don't see how an educated opinion of the Z06 could be that it is an unrefined sports car.

[djfux69]

you keep talking about the zo6 but im talking about the viper.. im not disagreeing with you about what you say about the vette.. i am agreeing. i am impressed with its numbers. i think that the price is a bit high but thats my opinion and i dont expect u to agree.. but again it is MY opinion. again it is my opinion that the zo6 is not a racecar engine.. in MY opinion a racecar has a nice high revving engine. an ample amount of power, and great response. i feel that the vette and the viper rev too low for my tastes.. again MY tastes.. i like the vette engine but i dont feel that it is a raceing engine.. i do not like the viper engine because i think with its displacement it should be producing a lot more power.

oh and my idea of refinment would be get rid of the pushrods.. go with a lil DOHC maybe some variable timing. its seems to me like an old engine.. old tech. not bad just old

[jRaskell]

My responses have been made towards statements by others (including you) that the Z06 was an unrefined sports car, and honestly I don't think the Viper is in a very different position.

And I'll reply to your opinion that race engine are high revving engines, and guess what, I'll use the C5R, yes, the Corvette Race car, with an LS1 derived pushrod engine cranking out 620hp at 6400RPM, just a few hundred RPM over the production corvette redline. The C5R has always been a competitor in all it's classes.

So opinion, and what is and isn't opinion. The C5R IS a race car with a race engine that is NOT high revving. That's a fact. So, you may prefer high revving engines, that may be your tastes, and you have said as much. You can say you don't like the LS1 cause it's not a high revving engine, but the LS1 IS a race engine nonetheless. That is a fact, not an opinion. And as for the Viper, it's all the same. The Viper engine IS a race engine, used very successfully in the GTS-R, a pure bred race car, which won the 97 GT2 manufacturers world championship with a 488ci version of the Viper v10 making 650hp@6000RPM. This is direct competition with teams using Porsche, Audi, and BMW hardware.

So to recap, opinions do not directly contradict known facts. Fact 1, the LS1 engine is a race engine used very successfully in a race car. Fact 2, the Viper engine is a race engine also used very successfully in a race car. And finally there's opinion. You do not like low revving RACE engines.

[djfux69]

good well at least you understand my opinion... and again i never debated the fact weather the engines were succesfull or not.. i stated that i feel that an engine of the size of the viper should produce better numbers..

[jRaskell]

i stated that i feel that an engine of the size of the viper should produce better numbers..

Ok. Replace should and with the world could and I'll agree with that statement. As for whether it should or not, that's simply a matter of philosophy. American manufacturer philosophy in general (when it comes to sports cars anyways) is to pick a horsepower target, and get to that target as economically, reliably, and efficiently as possible. When the goal is arranged in that manner, large displacement is always the best bang for the buck. Dodge built the Viper with target horsepower goals, not target displacement goals. They wanted 400hp, then 450hp, and now 500hp. The same design ideals are applied to GM and Ford sports cars as well. Dodge engineers didn't get caught up in tweaking every ounce of hp they could get out of every milliliter of displacement they had. That kind of philosophy gets complicated, costs money, and makes things more likely to break.

New technology is great and fun. High tech engines with all sorts of special components, advanced controls, and computer interfaces are a blast, as well as fascinating material to research and oooh and ahh over. But seriously, why build a 400hp engine for 20 grand when you can build one for 5 grand? If that's refinement, then you can keep your refinement. I like American sports cars just the way they are. Fast and affordable, thank you very much. And I'm comfortable with the fact that most Americans agree with me.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the LS6 engine goes as far towards overhead cam powerlevels and refinement as can be expected, the Viper's V10 does produce a lot low end, but a tuned up version of the new Hemi-Magnum would be easily a much more well rounded choice. I personally feel the high winding, yet torquey, 5.4L DOHC Cobra-R motor was nice (though it should have been putting out mid 400s for hp). The new 8.3L viper engine is an improvement, but really I think for fast cars, something a bit more homogeneous is in order.

[izzyloveslizzy]

You want exhast problems? You people don't know what Viper Exhaust problems mean. Go search on the net for videos (WITH SOUND) of the new Dodge Tomahawk from it's debut at the North American International Auto Show. This (for those of you who don't know) is basically a motorcycle with four wheels powered by the 500HP 8.3L V10 Dodge Viper Engine, with absolutely nothing done to it to reduce the exhaust sound.

And the fact that the acceleration of this futuristic tetra-cycle is 2.5 seconds from 0-100KPH, and that it's maximum speed if just over 400MPH is n't the scary thing.

The most freightening thing about the Tomahawk is it's apocalyptic exhaust note that drowns out everything else on god's green earth. Nevermind the fact that you may kill yourself 200 time over by "driving" this thing, because you will lose the ability to hear as soon as you fire it up.

So to conquer on one of the first things one of you said, yeah, it must have been just a bunch'o sissies b****ing about absolutely nothing at all.

[thepolarfoxqx]

so it shakes the earth when you run it, minor difficulty. The bigger issue is the bizzare V10 sound.

[izzyloveslizzy]

You honestly believe the sound is worse than the ride? I doubt it! I mean the sound will pierce your ear-drums for sure, but that's nothing when the ride will flat-out kill you!

[thepolarfoxqx]

well, as a daily driver, absolutely, but when you are just ripping around town, the horrible ride is fun (so long as you are not out too long). A nice exhaust note is okay to be loud, the sound of the viper is just itchy. These are two areas where the vette is lightyears ahead of viper.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Well I'd have to agree. Also, what mkes it worse is that this is the Viper engine, just literally dropped into a Motorcycle's engine slot. That just ain't right. Also, "ripping around" town sounds more serious when you're riding 500 horses! Ripping, yes, @ 640KPH, to be precise! This thing scares me.

[thepolarfoxqx]

yeah, but that is a really heavy and ugly 4 wheel motorcycle, who wants that. I personally have never engined the viper exhaust note, as it is a sorta whiny, uneven, annoying scream. The ride is terrible too. I have found that you tend to back off the viper sooner because of the really bad sounding exhaust, and then you look down at your tach, expecting to see it dancing at the 6k redline, and it is at 4500 at best. Not cool.