2005 Chevy Cobalt SS ...

[96M3_98M3_04STi]

with equal length/mass drive shafts and an lsd, torque steer is still shows itself when you get in the high horsepower range. those things just try to help it a little. controlling it has a lot more to do with the driver.

torque is technically:

[torque, T] = [the amount of force, F] x [moment arm length, L]

i.e, with a 12" shaft torqe wrench, applying 5 pounds of force gives you 5ft lbs of torque.

with a 17" shaft torque wrench, applying 5 pounds of force gives you about 7ft lbs of torque.

varying the shaft length by 42% created a 40% increase in torque.

none of this even takes into account the greater dynamics of mass involved with the actual drive shafts in which you introduce inertia and such. drive shaft lengths make a huge difference - negating the delta, or coming as close as possible to negating the delta, helps tremendously.

i agree that a good driver can compensate for a great deal, but car design goes further - and this is also the fodder for the age old debate of whether tis better to have a rear wheel drive sports car or a front wheel drive sports car.

cheers, gents.

*Please Note: Technically, pressure is defined as: P = F / A, thus: F = P x A, but I just said 5 pounds and did not specify a given area of application simply for illustration for the above example.

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Hallo LateNightCable,

 

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[LateNightCable]

I've always liked Saturns myself, I've never owned one, but my experiances with them have not been bad. The ION RedLine's weight is listed at 2,933lbs. 58lbs. less than the Cobalt SS. As the best performance rig, I go with the Saturn, I think it looks more sporty, and it's also a little roomier inside. GM cheaps out on the Saturn powertrain warranty though, which is silly. 3 year/36,000 mi. against 5 year/60,000 for the Cobalt even though it's the same powertrain.

Expect to pay closer to 25k for a new Mustang GT when all is said and done - for a 3/36,000 warranty, solid rear axle, no limited slip, no available moonroof and a curb weight of over 3,400 lbs. It has muscle under the hood, but I wouldn't say it's a sportier ride than the SRT, or even faster, which it isn't really. The SRT offers up similar accleration times, much better breaking, and no doubt more flingable handling. Thinking long term it also comes with a much better powertrain warranty by the way - 7/70,000. And it already has the turbo, which would void a Mustang's warranty.

I love American iron, but the SRT-4 just has more to give to the performance driver than a bread and butter Mustang GT in my opinion.

[wEstSide]

with both the Lancer EVO and the WRX STi, you are getting vehicles with over 10 years of history, several generations already past, and myriad race-proven days and technological advancement behind them

Which is why Mitsubishi and Subaru void warranties.

[96M3_98M3_04STi]

And it already has the turbo, which would void a Mustang's warranty.

aftermarket, agreed. i was thinking about going through ford or saleen with a setup from a cobra or saleen (future wise, that is).

invoice on the neon SRT-4 is roughly $19K (did not see any cashback specifically for SRT-4).

invoice is $22K for the mustang GT (deluxe, not premium) with $750 cashback.

i imagine some wheeling and dealing will not get you on equal footing, but could put you within $2K or so, maybe less.

Quote:

with both the Lancer EVO and the WRX STi, you are getting vehicles with over 10 years of history, several generations already past, and myriad race-proven days and technological advancement behind them

Which is why Mitsubishi and Subaru void warranties.

the implication is?

why would mitsubishi and subaru void warranties? because there are several generations of evo's and wrx's, 10 years of history, and myriad race proven days?

or that if you race an evo or wrx, then Mitsubishi and Subaru consider the warranty void?

or that if you add aftermarket parts to your evo or wrx, any damage incurred - that can be proven to be caused by the aftermarket parts - would give Mitsubishi and Subaru grounds to void the warranty?

dodge allows racing? dodge allows you to add aftermarket parts?

dodge will not void a warranty based on damage they ascertain is due to racing or aftermarket parts?

if that is true, that's a pretty sweet deal.

[bleh]

none of this even takes into account the greater dynamics of mass involved with the actual drive shafts in which you introduce inertia and such. drive shaft lengths make a huge difference - negating the delta, or coming as close as possible to negating the delta, helps tremendously.

i agree that a good driver can compensate for a great deal, but car design goes further - and this is also the fodder for the age old debate of whether tis better to have a rear wheel drive sports car or a front wheel drive sports car.

equal axles will help provide for a more natural feel, however my point was that it really doesnt help as much as plainly learning how to deal with it. to say that car design goes further is true but an incomplete thought. to truely minimize torque steer in a fwd car in a straight line the differential must be fused together. everything on both wheels must be equal. the mass and length of the shafts is only one part of the equation.

there must be equal weight on each wheel for equal traction and also as the weight shifts twards the rear it must do so equally on each wheel. should there be any difference the car will torque steer. there are a host of other variables that contribute such as slope and camber etc. but torque steer is an extremely important issue with front wheel drive cars. also an lsd really only helps to a degree. so the best cure for it is learning how to drive the car. how to work the pedals and the wheel.

and for the other point, i dont think i would really receive much opposition in saying that a rear wheel drive sports car generally allows higher limits to performance. thus jumping to the conclusion that rwd>fwd.

[96M3_98M3_04STi]

equal axles will help provide for a more natural feel, however my point was that it really doesnt help as much as plainly learning how to deal with it. to say that car design goes further is true but an incomplete thought. to truely minimize torque steer in a fwd car in a straight line the differential must be fused together. everything on both wheels must be equal. the mass and length of the shafts is only one part of the equation.

there must be equal weight on each wheel for equal traction and also as the weight shifts twards the rear it must do so equally on each wheel. should there be any difference the car will torque steer. there are a host of other variables that contribute such as slope and camber etc. but torque steer is an extremely important issue with front wheel drive cars. also an lsd really only helps to a degree. so the best cure for it is learning how to drive the car. how to work the pedals and the wheel.

gotcha.

had assumed these things, looked at just front wheels in isolation. you're right, the larger picture involves much greater dynamics than just the drive shafts - never meant to imply that torque oversteer lay simply with the drive shafts.

yes, you have to love the predictability of a sweet rear wheel drive sports car and knowing when the limit and how far you can push it. i'm always felt that with front wheel drive vehicles, that point is somewhat obscured - feedback at the limit is rather numb.

completely off topic, but anyone else ever notice that the supreme chancellor in star wars episode II: attack of the clones seems like a more wrinkle-free version of "the emporer?" and there is that pep talk he gives anakin about being the most powerful jedi... hmm...

i know it's old hat, but just thought of it cause i was bored and put it on as background fodder.

cheers, gents.

[LateNightCable]

aftermarket, agreed. i was thinking about going through ford or saleen with a setup from a cobra or saleen (future wise, that is).

Going through Ford. the only option for a blown Mustang would be the SVT Mustang Cobra which has an invoice of over $32,000, and there are none for 2005. Saleen doesn't offer turbos, but a supercharger from them will run about $3,600 - not including installation. Though Saleen is tight with Ford, this may or may not void the warranty.

Star Wars, now that is off topic. I must say I haven't even seen the newer episodes in their entirety. So I don't know any of the charictors except JarJar Binks which everyone seems to hate. I wouldn't know.

[wEstSide]

why would mitsubishi and subaru void warranties? because there are several generations of evo's and wrx's, 10 years of history, and myriad race proven days?

or that if you race an evo or wrx, then Mitsubishi and Subaru consider the warranty void?

or that if you add aftermarket parts to your evo or wrx, any damage incurred - that can be proven to be caused by the aftermarket parts - would give Mitsubishi and Subaru grounds to void the warranty?

dodge allows racing? dodge allows you to add aftermarket parts?

dodge will not void a warranty based on damage they ascertain is due to racing or aftermarket parts?

if that is true, that's a pretty sweet deal.

What I mean to say is that a Lancer Evolution comes off the lot with what is an almost worthless piece of paper (warranty). Have you not heard of the slew of voided warranties? Race your Evo or Sti, say goodbye; damage the clutch on the Evo, don't expect warranty work to be done. Most dealerships are masters of BS and have no difficulty fabricating a reason a part broke which would put you at fault. I actually hang around Evom and srtforums looking for stuff about the warranty, and from what I've seen, Dodge takes a much better stance towards the SRT-4. If you mess around too much, they will simply refuse to do warranty work, and only if the part you messed with is what caused the problem will they void the warranty. Mitsubishi will void your warranty for anything. Come in with a new hood and they might void your powertrain warranty. I don't know that much about Subaru, but I know they search and void for racing (even though they give a one year SCCA membership with the WRX Sti).

In short, the warranty for the SRT-4 is way better.

Edit: Everyone hates Jar Jar Binks because he is like the new version of a Minstrel show. Thank you George Lucas, I can't wait for his performance of "Oh, Susanah!" and "Jump Jim Crow." The Chancellor is the Emperor, obviously.

[96M3_98M3_04STi]

i'm impressed dodge is more lenient about this.

then again, mitsubishi is in financial straits - it would make sense for them to not want to pay "questionables."

subaru, owned by fuji heavy industries, is a lot more solid financially - and from what i've seen so far from wrxlinks, nasioc, and some other wrx forums - subaru does alright by wrx and wrx sti owners.

yeah, the chancellor and the emporer...right down to the cleft chin.

[bleh]

yes, you have to love the predictability of a sweet rear wheel drive sports car and knowing when the limit and how far you can push it. i'm always felt that with front wheel drive vehicles, that point is somewhat obscured - feedback at the limit is rather numb.

hahaha!! numb is exactly the feeling when you make a turn and havent sent enough weight to the front and simply chew on some cones. perfect word.

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Hallo LateNightCable,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema Zubehör für US Cars (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

[speed05]

The Cobalt SS is getting really good reviews from Motortrend

CarandDriver

and MPH

[LateNightCable]

The fact that the Cobalt is a quality product I think means more than the existance of the SS itself. It seems to be doing a good job of finding it's own niche.

GM made a big deal of the Cobalt's "expensive" fluid filled bushings, something they discovered when they disected a VW. Perhaps GM will practice the art of disection a little more from now on?

[thepolarfoxqx]

GM learns lots of things disecting other people's cars. Ford buys companies that develop some very interesting things. Jaguar offered engine and suspension technology, as well as created the DEW platform that now underpins cars in a number of different brand names (Mustang, T-Bird, Lincoln LS, Mercury Cougar), Land Rover gave Ford driveline technology, and gave them an in into BMW engineering (notice how often ZF transmissions and steering boxes appear on ford vehicles, even north american ones now). Mazda is just creative, and designed such cars as the Ford Escape which has been a great seller, and the mazda six platform will underpin the taurus/sable replacement, and its upcoming lincoln counterpart. Volvo offered a world of safety technology, and the platform for the new ford 500/freestyle. GM doesn't use their global network as efficiently. They might not even have to disect stuff outside their own empire.

[LateNightCable]

But the DEW platform was created with Ford money under Ford direction. Since Ford bought Jaguar in 1989, for just over two billion dollars, Jaguar - who was in the dark ages under their own steam, hasn't offered much in terms of technology. It's all Ford.

I don't think boosting technology from other makers is really nesessary, American engineers are just given many constraints in regards to testing and development - mostly financial, so they do what they can, and that's what they do. Euro style technological trail blazing and the American high volume sell em' cheap mentality are strange bed fellows.

[thepolarfoxqx]

The DEW was designed in coventry by jaguar with jaguar technology. So was the AJ V8. They have no similarity to anything in Ford's North American or European divisions. The X-Type rides on a mondeo platform with a Duratech Engine, but the DEW and AJ were all jaguar. Whether ford funded it or not doesn't matter. We all know jaguar doesn't make money.

[LateNightCable]

They might make a little money now, mostly due to the S/X-Type. But they didn't make money before, and they didn't make modern technology either until Ford came along. I'm sure Ford engineers had their hands in the pie the whole way through while developing the DEW and AJ. Any platform that Ford would use for their own cars would. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bothered to purchase Jaguar at all. You buy a flagging company so you can influence them and call the shots - then reap the rewards if any. Ford held restraint from any obvious fiddling for awhile though, I'll give them that.

[thepolarfoxqx]

No, what you are talking about is what GM and VW do. Ford does it a bit different. Ford uses technology from their companies to share. Ford uses a mazda designed 4 cylender in the focus, they use the S80 platform for the ford 500/freestyle (that platform was designed before Ford bought them, btw), Ford engineers had nothing to do with the AJ V8 or the DEW, if you look over the design of the AJ, it shares no common characteristics with any engine in the ford line. Ford has its independent subsidies develop technology, and shares it amongst them. The DEW and AJ are jaguar.

[LateNightCable]

Ford has its independent subsidies develop technology, and shares it amongst them.

That's the part that seems fishy. Not that they don't share the stuff, they do, but that they had no direct involvment in development. Ussually the one with the purse strings likes to know whats going on and then of course that turns into "we'd like it done this way." You know how big business goes. Developing a small block V8 had to have at least been Ford's idea. This is what I mean by Ford direction.