2005 Chevy Cobalt SS ...

[LateNightCable]

Has anyone ever seen photos of even half the cars they say were tuned on Nurgurbring, actually on that track? Funny how "tuned on a Nascar curcuit" never fits ino their equation.

There is a big difference between a $20,000 car and a $30,000 car. More than in any other price segment. WRX or Lancer Evo are reletive bargains, but still expensive. The SRT-4 achieves a whole hell of a lot on 20k. Probably as much as a WRX or Evo would if they were to cost 10k less.

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Hallo LateNightCable,

 

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[wEstSide]

They meant Nurburgring the NASCAR circuit in Alabama.

[thepolarfoxqx]

GM has had opel do nearly all of their suspension tuning of late. The cadillac CTS, STS, it wouldn't surprise me if opel calibrated the cobalt on the gring. Just cause they used the track to calibrate it doesn't mean they calibrated it for all out track performance. I'd bet the cobalt has a very well balanced suspension that handles well and rides decent too, it's platform mates from europe are all impressive. too bad dodge doesn't have global platform sharing going yet, it would likely help SRT, the lancer suspension is definately more promising, and would make SRT more competitive.

[LateNightCable]

No matter where the Cobalt was tuned, I don't see it being very competiteve against the SRT-4 in anything other than ride and comfort. And the SRT is not axactly a tin can with a rat motor anyway.

On the subject of using the Lancer platform for the Dodge, this would also make SRT a bit more expensive. At the end of the day, the Lancer is still an econo car, like the Neon. There is nothing amazing about the Lancer platform either. Everything that makes it a performance car is what makes the Evo twice the price of a base Lancer. Plus, it's a Jap car. The SRT-4 is the anti-Jap car. Also, recognize that the Neon is only in it's second generation. Until two years ago, Dodge only made half efforts to make it a sports competitor. I assume a third gen Neon platform will be a little more sports oriented. Lancer based or not.

If the SRT were to ever cost 25k+, than the point of it's existance would be lost.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the 3rd generation neon platform is going to be shared with mitsubishi, and possibly hyundai as well.

It's going to get lancer underpinings sooner or later, which are more sophisticated, refined, and provide better ride and handling. It wouldn't be more expensive either. Even if SRT is an anti japanese car, the bean counters pull rank on engineers in the auto industry. the neon is ranked bottom of the barrel in its segment. that should be duely noted. cobalt will likely keep with SRT in handling. NOt in striaghtline, but there is the tradeoff.

[LateNightCable]

No, I'm pretty sure the Kia Rio or Chevy Aveo is the bottom of the barrel, but point taken.

All I can say about the future of the Neon is ugh. Get your all-American Dodge crap while you can! Bean counters, lousy traitors.

I think the Cobalt would lag a little behind the SRT in handling anyway if only for it's lack of a limited slip.

[thepolarfoxqx]

I personally think a neon on the lancer chasis would only be better. the neon isn't that great. International part sharing only helps cars. The escort used to be every bit as bad as the cavalier and neon, but when ford went global and moved into the focus, they become class leading. The neon, not the SRT, but the neon is going to need something to be able to compete with newer, more sophisticated, refined, and popular competitors like cobalt and focus, the neon is quickly sinking to bottom of the barel. The SRT is a lot of power, but even on the new lancer platform, i doubt they'd give it AWD, then it would be too close to lancer.

[skyline_r34v]

Mitsu has said they'll only deal with Dodge in their current Stratus' but who knows how much longer the Stratus will be out.

I think i'd rather have a SRT-4 than a Cobalt SS. Next gen SRT-4's will have a more MOPAR tuned-suspension orientation to it than all out quickness like the latter does. When they through the SRT-4 out on the market only thing they were worried about was turbocharge the hell out of it, build a stronger chassis and make it quick as possible for the less money. They weren't really to bright on making the suspension but the next generation SRT-4's will DEFINITELY be promising for all of FWD cars to come.

[LateNightCable]

Global parts sharing may make for better cars, but it also takes another chunk out of the fun as far as individual choices go. Hopefully, there won't come a time when we're all driving 70 different variations of the same 6 cars. If that ever comes, I'll stick do driving old Cadillacs and other pre-2000 cars. And the Lancer isn't a Dodge anyway, have they no shame?

The Lancer Evo is a good car, but like it's Subaru competitor, it's still $30,000+. I see the next gen SRT-4 as being the total package if they keep the price in check. 90-95% of the performance for 2/3 the price.

[thepolarfoxqx]

90-95% of the performance? Nope. Try maybe 75-80% best case scenario. It's a good deal. I still say that with a better a suspension, it could be very impressive. The most limiting factor to the SRT is its platform. I'm curious to see what Ford SVT answers this with. They have made 250hp 2.0l turbos in concept focus cars. The current SVT focus is very sporty in character, will outhandle nearly all of the competition, but needs more power. In terms of good competition however, the MazdaSpeed protege, though a bit slower than SRT blows the doors off it in handling, is well more refined, and is a nicer car in general.

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Hallo LateNightCable,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema Zubehör für US Cars (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

[skyline_r34v]

I'm not much liking the SVT Focus except how well it handles. Everything else I really don't like about it.

The MazdaSpeed Protege DEFINITELY out-does the SRT-4 in the looks department but it is over 1.5 seconds slower in the 1/4 and the 60. I also give it much credit for it's 70+mph slalom so it slightly out-handles the 69mph slalom'd SRT-4. The SRT-4 is just a better car over-all.

It's 2.0L, turbocharged and only 170hp, which is pathetic. They limited the power output because of the worries about their transmission. It should be well above 200+. If they were so worried about the transmission then why didn't they just put in a built transmission to handle extra power or beefed up the current one?? It's grossly underpowered and slow for being turbo'd.

If by more refined you mean alot harsher ride and extreme torque steer then yeah I guess it IS "refined".

As i've said I believe in my opinion the SRT-4 is the better choice of the two. Just the damn looks are SO BLAH.

[wEstSide]

I wouldn't draw conclusions about the Mazdaspeed Protege so quickly. The power output isn't the greatest, but when you put it all together (interior luxury, and handling) it's a pretty nice car. It isn't supposed to be a straight line street performer.

[LateNightCable]

90-95% of the performance? Nope. Try 75-80% best case scenario.

Okay then, lets compromise and say 85%. But first, lets look at the raw numbers.

..................... Lancer Evo RS ....................... SRT-4 ( all stats from Car&Driver )

Cost ........................ 28k ............................... 21k

0 - 60 ....................... 4.8 .......................... 0-62 - 5.3

5 - 60 ....................... 6.4 ............................... 5.7

1/4 mi ................ 13.5 @ 102 .................... 13.9 @ 103

0 - 100 .................... 13.2 .............................. 13.4

Top Speed ............ 149 mph ........................... 153 mph

70 - 0 ..................... 167 ft. ............................ 169 ft.

Skidpad ................... 0.92g ........................... 0.86g

Avg. mpg................... 17 ................................. 17

And that's a Lancer RS model against a current SRT-4. Refinement aside, I'd say thats' better than 90% of the performance. Next gen SRT-4 could be quite a well rounded competitor I imagine.

I don't think Ford takes the hot hatch thing very seriously, the SVT Focus had good suspension work, but they seemed timid to give it any real power. As for the MazdaSpeed Protege, personally I don't think it looks more hot than the SRT. Mazda obviously went the safe and civilized route with that car, the MazdaSpeed is a nice refined sporty car, built for handling, whereas the SRT is built for raw speed. But raw speed wins more kudos in the budget performance field.

[skyline_r34v]

whereas the SRT is built for raw speed. But raw speed wins more kudos in the budget performance field.

That it most certainly does. If I needed a cheap family car there would be no doubt at all in my mind that the SRT-4 would be my choice.

[bleh]

But raw speed wins more kudos in the budget performance field.

i disagree. for highway pulls i guess its true, but i will not choose the car with the most power for its $. id rather take a car that can handle and rip around cones over the car that is only good for highway pulls. dont get me wrong highway pulls are fun but i have more fun with the lateral g's. believe me, i am on a budget.

[skyline_r34v]

i disagree. for highway pulls i guess its true, but i will not choose the car with the most power for its $. id rather take a car that can handle and rip around cones over the car that is only good for highway pulls. dont get me wrong highway pulls are fun but i have more fun with the lateral g's. believe me, i am on a budget.

We are of the minimal % that are like that. Most of these included the domestic/american muscle idiots. They are all for the cheapest route to the most power.

[thepolarfoxqx]

i don't think you can say what the budget car crowd wants. There was no car that gave more muscle per dollar than the Z28, and no one wanted that, because chevy dealers had 260 days of inventory when production stopped. People in general buy the budget cars that feel the most expensive. If you drive a focus or a civic, they drive and look inside more expensive than they are. The SRT is niche car. It's the fastest car for the 20k market you can buy. It's fairly practical. It fit's a niche. Just like the mazda speed does. The SRT isn't something no one has seen before. It's just a fast car for a solid deal.

[LateNightCable]

The Z28 was just out of touch with current tastes. Sporty compacts have never been more popular than they are now. On top of being a practical little four door, the SRT is the 20k speed king. It's true, handling prowess appeals more to people like us, but the market can't ignore straight line speed. 0-60 in 5.? sounds more impressive to the lay man than any amount of g.

[thepolarfoxqx]

in the end, the truth is that no one makes money on performance model cars. That isn't their purpose. They are to bring prestige and show prowess. As much as i hate the neon, i think that the SRT has increased some people's opinion of a neon. Just the same as EVO made people take lancer more seriously and mazdaspeed gave protege more sports cred. To that ends, i think srt has worked. It's not built that well, it's not refined, but i'm starting to think that edge is part of why people like it.

[LateNightCable]

Definitely, everyone who drives an SRT loves the rough nature and snap crackle pop of the exhaust I'm sure. It's kind of the same reason people love Ferrari's or Ducati's - it feels naked.

As a bi-product, sports models also enable a trickle down parts effect for the lesser models. Whether it's an appearance enhancing lookalike package or various performance parts.

[thepolarfoxqx]

i meant, the people liked how it felt raw - like tinny. Like the inside isn't too nice, like it feels rough. It doesn't handle with scalple precision, it's not smooth, it has a rough edge. I'm not sure i'd compare it to ducati or ferrari.

[96M3_98M3_04STi]

gents,

concerning "crank horsepower" to "wheel horsepower" it is a matter of efficiency of the individual parts (as someone had mentioned). the gearing (the shape of each individual gear tooth itself can induce or reduce losses and impact efficiency), the transmission, the transaxle, etc., etc....

expect to see 15% losses in a very efficient driveline - for something like a 4 speed automatic transmission, you may see something like a 30% loss.

as far as the Cobalt SS, do you guys think much of the Saturn Red Line ION? the Cobalt SS is nothing more than the ION with metal, instead of plastic body panels, and perhaps with arguably a better tuned suspension.

whether or not mitsubishi's Lancer (or some other design) will serve as the next generation Neon platform is questionable, as mitsubishi is in financial straits. they are trying to revive their finances as well as overcome their liability issues for hiding major problems with their cars for something like a decade (was a big issue back in japan - not as much press here in the US). by the way, the stratus, avenger, and sebring shared a platform with the mitsubishi gallant.

http://www.allpar.com/reviews/2002/galant.html

Chrysler has been selling cars based on the Mitsubishi Galant platform for years, starting with the "Plymouth Laser" (Mitsubishi Eclipse). Indeed, the Laser and Eclipse were a joint venture - Chrysler helped with styling and a little engineering, and the cars were built in a joint venture plant in the United States, Diamond Star Motors. The goal of Diamond Star was to increase Mitsubishi's presence in the US, while giving Chrysler a close view of how to apply quality and involvement in manufacturing. (Walter Chrysler was by then spinning quite rapidly in his grave.) Later, the Galant spawned the Dodge Avenger and Chrysler Sebring Coupe; the Avenger was renamed "Stratus Coupe" in 2001.

as for performance per buck and comparing the "$30k" vs the "$20k" sports cars, i paid $28k for my 2004 WRX STi and I don't think that the $7k more I spent was wasted.

i get all wheel drive that does work quite well in gravel conditions, wet road conditions, and where i live, in light to moderate snow conditions. it also works great when taking 60 mph curves at 140 mph.

if you want to stick strictly with numbers (also with car and driver stats) - 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, 5-60 in 5.8 seconds, 0.90g skidpad, 166 feet from 70 mph, 1/4 mile in 13.2 seconds at 103 mph - and I can personally attest to averaging 17 mpg - you might surmise that you are obtaining some 85% of the performance, but i'd beg to differ at 140 mph around some of the mountain roads i have driven between california and nevada.

look at it this way, over the course of a 5 year car note, $7k spread out is not an extremely large additional amount per month. as well, with both the Lancer EVO and the WRX STi, you are getting vehicles with over 10 years of history, several generations already past, and myriad race-proven days and technological advancement behind them. plus, i will not make any broad statements about either the neon, nor the cobalt, as i have not researched them as much - but both the Lancer EVO and WRX STi have shown an exceptional mechanical reliability record considering that they are essentially high-strung street legal rally cars.

don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to just outright trash the SRT4, as it is a nice bruiser for the buck - i just haven't seen anybody really give "the other side" yet.

and as i close, do consider that the praise you give the Cobalt SS is also largely applicable to the Saturn Red Line ION.

STi Link...

http://www.caranddriver.com/default.asp?section_id=39&agFlash=589&agMake=SUBARU&agModel=IMPREZA

Red Line ION and Cobalt SS Link...

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/112004_04.html

GM wants Saturn to shed the dowdy image, so now there are performance models labeled Red Line. It's straightforward for the VUE-just order the Red Line package...

The Red Line ION is an appealing car for about 20 grand. A 2.0L version of the Ecotec 2.2L Four is supercharged and air-to-water intercooled, boosting horsepower from 140 to 205. The heavy-duty front axle has equal-length shafts to minimize torque steer, and four-wheel-discs with ABS and a race-tuned lowered suspension with 17-in. wheels and Continental performance tires.

While Ford has adopted a CVT, GM has dropped the one used with the VUE four-cylinder...

The Cavalier and Sunfire were hopelessly out of date, and after a quarter century of tweaking, they're gone. This year Chevy gets a new econocar, the Cobalt, which is technically almost identical to the Saturn ION-also built on GM's Delta platform, but without ION's plastic body panels. The Cobalt also gets the 2.2 Ecotec, and there's an SS model that's got the same 2.0L supercharged engine and five-speed manual as the Red Line.

[LateNightCable]

An SRT-4 is like a Ducati or Ferrari in that it is not sanitized. It's rough and raw in places, by design or otherwise.

* To 96M3 - our comparison of the SRT with a 30k car was between it and the Lancer ( Evo VIII ) a potential platform sharer. But point taken.

We haven't thought much of the Cobalt SS in this thread, but personally I think the Saturn ION Red Line is a cool iteration of the Delta platform.

[96M3_98M3_04STi]

An SRT-4 is like a Ducati or Ferrari in that it is not sanitized. It's rough and raw in places, by design or otherwise.

hmmm...not sure i agree, but understand where you are coming from.

* To 96M3 - our comparison of the SRT with a 30k car was between it and the Lancer ( Evo VIII ) a potential platform sharer. But point taken.

prior to discussing the shared platform...

There is a big difference between a $20,000 car and a $30,000 car. More than in any other price segment. WRX or Lancer Evo are reletive bargains, but still expensive. The SRT-4 achieves a whole hell of a lot on 20k. Probably as much as a WRX or Evo would if they were to cost 10k less.

that's what i was referring to. sorry to mix lines.

We haven't thought much of the Cobalt SS in this thread, but personally I think the Saturn ION Red Line is a cool iteration of the Delta platform.

this is actually a nice site and ironically, the only reason i stumbled upon it was because i was digging around for info, opinions, and personal experiences on the cobalt SS - of course, this was before i discovered it was a saturn red line ION...something which i had given very little thought to previously. the cobalt SS is a much more svelte ride than the ION in appearance.

given the opportunity to get a brand new 2005 neon SRT-4 for $21K or say a performance serious 2005 mustang GT for $22K (meaning, no super fancy seats, no super fancy stereo, no super fancy this or that - keep the price down but still allow for basic pluses that you would expect to get with the neon), what would you gents go for?

given the room to breath, the stronger chassis, driveline, and rear wheel drive - i would go with the mustang and work towards getting a turbo put in. i think long term, you have more room to grow with the mustang. but, it's just an opinion.

a few posts back someone commented about the mazdaspeed only posting 170hp rather than 200+, but there are other considerations such as torque oversteer, that are part of the equation. part of fine tuning the suspension and handling in a front wheeler is negating torque oversteer (well, in general, you want a relatively neutral setup - and you'd like to be aware of when you are about to reach your traction limits).

i'm certain everybody here with experience on a front wheel drive vehicle with over 200hp can easily attest to torque oversteer and that whole crazy scene. mash the gas and your steering wheel has a mind of its own - it's pure physics, a combination of rotational mass, and unequal drive shafts.

i can see mazda wanting to limit this - though i don't know why they have limited it so much with the miata.

kudos to ford's svt division for doing it. speaking of protege's, the same platform, the mazda 323 platform, is what is being used for ford's new focus mk II, codenamed c307.

[bleh]

i dont think its fair to compare either the evo or the sti to the srt4 or the cobalt ss. they are worlds apart and if you have the extra $ the choice is obvious. i also had no idea a baseline gt was so affordable, but i doubt it can still be compared since it is still so different even though in a similar price range.

with equal length/mass drive shafts and an lsd, torque steer is still shows itself when you get in the high horsepower range. those things just try to help it a little. controlling it has a lot more to do with the driver.

that is an interesting point about the ion sharing the platform.. either way i am unimpressed with both. that is unless the ion is lighter due to the plastic when it comes to fwd dropping the weight helps more than upping the power