2003 Mercedes-Benz CL 65 AMG

[thepolarfoxqx]

an S430 is resonably powerful, the 4.3 is torquey, and feels right under the hood, not sporty, but not underpowered. It is a smooth engine, and makes all the right yells at high rpms. the S500 is just more. It feels sporty, excessive power everywhere, still very smooth, this engines feels effortless in the S. The acceleration times on the S500 are very very impressive. It is expensive, but the quality and luxury are second to none. The S55 is a true screamer, and the S600 of the same horsepower rating is a rocket sled.

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Hallo Rishy,

 

kennst du schon 2003 Mercedes-Benz CL 65 AMG (Anzeige)? Dort ist vieles zu finden.

 

Mercedes AMG Ersatzteile (Anzeige) | Mercedes AMG Zubehör (Anzeige)

[vorros]

Ok!GIR and FOX my uncle has a s500-2002!it`s a limo ok but the electr.suspension is very bad made he allmoust crashed in a corner!in a left corner the rigt side becomes stiffer right?ok in this time it becomes softer and now he has all his electronik changed!my friend has a brand new s430 it`s giving him a lot of trouble again with electroniks!you tell me now that they are great limos! the bmws and audi 8 are in a diferent class! :)and GIR if you had a s500 why are you driving now a golf 3?

[GIR]

Actually the Golf is my Girlfriends I recently crashed the S500 (hence I said: "used to own a S500"). I took it of there because it's not safe to drive in it anymore. I have a leased (Audi A4) car now, untill I can get the financials straight (read: the insurance company decides to pay me) for a new car. If you look at my carpool you'll see a blank spot at the top, that's where my S500 used to be.

The servo suspension has been a point of debate for a while now, the overall notion seems to be that you either love it or hate it. Some people just can't seem to adjust to the fact that this car reacts in a different manner, or hardly tilts or dives when driving. It's not made for highspeeds but for a smooth ride (which is kinda obvious due to the weight of the car). The ABC and ESP program on the AMG versions seems to suit people with a sporty driving style. There is a killswitch for ABC and ESP so if you don't like it, you can turn it off.

BTW: the suspension is made up of 2 parts. First part is a regular shockbreaker and a spring and second part is a servo. The job of the servo is to counter body movement so the body stay's on the same angle. If you think the shocks on your car are too stiff or too soft you can always have them replaced by other shocks. The servo's aren't electronic but hydraulic.

I don't know what problems you are reffering to. If you say electronics are malfunctioning on a new S430 then I will say that you are talking nonsense or you are being scammed. If you say that the electronics don't suite your friends drivingstyle then he can turn them off. Reffer to the owners manual.

Also your uncle should've brought the S500 back to the dealer, they can readout the error vault, determine what was wrong and fix it. I don't think you understand the workings of the servo suspension. The only thing the servo's do is push up the car (make the suspension stiffer and thus counter movement), it can not make the suspension softer. Even if ABC was malfunctioning he would've still had the regular suspension to catch him, maybe because the malfunction the car tilted which he didn't expect and he paniced.

What your uncle could've experienced tho is under- or oversteer. ESP can counter this but to some extend. I don't think he was driving at a safe speed if ESP couldn't stabelize the car or had problems stabelizing the car.

If your uncle was driving at a safe speed it wouldn't even have the matter if ABC and ESP were malfunctioning.

Software malfunctions aren't uncommon, it happens and not just in a Mercedes. The trick is to make a redundant system where a driver still can safely control the car even if the system is malfunctioning. The suspension servo's allow this because they do not control the complete suspension system, they just pump extra force to one side of the car to counter movement. I don't think you can blame the electronics because your uncle was driving way too fast or paniced.

[vorros]

it looks like you got hot!no hard feallings right! ok?what do you meen about safe speed?the M can go only 250! yes the car is now in the mercedes garage!I still think that bmw and audi are better!ok?I dont now why my uncle likes mercedes but i know now he will by S8-audi!great I will try it!buy

[GIR]

UH? Hard feelings? I never had any hard feelings... I was just making conversation, that's why we're here

Anywayz, I'm a embedded systems engineer myself and I find it real hard to believe that Mercedes would ever put out faulty electronics. It takes upto 12000 man years to code and test these systems. To give you an idea a DVD player takes upto 800 man years. The expected quality is the same as that of medical systems.

My S500 never gave me any problems, altho once the ABS refused to function, the dealer read out the error vault and forwarded it to Mercedes so they could have a look at it. They also installed a new ABS ECU.

p.s.: For those thinking that 12000 man years is an unbelievable amount because noboy lives 12000 years. Yes you could have 1 man work on it for 12000 years. But you could have 12000 men work on it for 1 year or 24000 mean work on it for 6 months I don't think Mercedes has a workforce of 24000 pHd lvl coders that's why it takes a while to develop systems like that.

A producer like Sony or Philips needs to react to the market very quickly. They need to put a product on the market within 6 months or their product is out dated before it's even there. So they have a huge workforce of coders.

A quick lesson in product development cycles

[thepolarfoxqx]

CL65 specs.

The new bad boy has a very highly tuned version of the Type 12 engine. It features newer, larger turbochargers, intercoolers, and new ducting. Also more agressive boost control.

5.4L 60 Degree V12

SOHC 36V layout

Twin turbo and intercooled

curb weight of 4,850lbs

5 spd autobox

Slated to press 602hp @ 5,600rpms

790ft/lbs of torque at 2,200rpms.

Read that last line again. Yes.

[GIR]

Does Merc have DOHC technology?

Any idea on how much it wil cost?

[izzyloveslizzy]

Dual overhead cam is something Mercedes isn't interested in all that much, apparently. Though they may have a few DOHC models lying around somewhere in the basement. They (along with BMW and sometimes Audi) usually pioneer such technologies, but I guess they thought they could do without it or something. I think Merc should also move up from it's current trend of sticking with 3 valves/cylinder system. They make up for it with valve-timing (and they ARE German, so that helps). But if they make 4/5 Valves/Cyl. DOHC engines then their current performance numbers (massive as they already are) will get noticeable boosts.

I have no idea how much it costs though if it exists in any Merc.. wait for Fox to reply, he'll know. But even once they make it the price shouldn't really increase.

[thepolarfoxqx]

DOHC is just a layout. The SOHC 3V/Cyl layout used by MB is good for lowend grunt. The DOHC 4V/5V cylnder that is the preference of BMW and Audi is more for middle and higher end torque. Merc used to use DOHC, but has switched to SOHC. Mercedes also uses a twin spark plug configuration. There isn't enough room for two spark plugs on a twin cam head.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Well, interestingly enough, they're switching back. One of the big reasons is that they too want to reap the benefitss of high-end Torque delivery and 5 valves/cyl. goodness. Current Merc models (at any range or spec) can pull trees. That ceratinly gives them a muscular image. But they're somehow amazingly losing the battle to BMW and Audi's more speed-crazy and specific-stage-Torque delivering carriages. If Merc. can map it all out differently as to make the current engines deliver the Torque at higher gears and revs, then they'll beat the competition. The 469HP AMG engine, for example, is peppered with Torque (516). That's much more than Audis and BMWs that have relatively less Torque delivery (even in 2nd gear) than HP. Merc matches it's rivals in sheer number of horses, and out-torques them to smitherines. If they can play on both sides of the fence (make use of the new DOHC 4/5 Valve/cyl. layout and keep the lbs.ft. at the same level), then they basically have their cake and they can eat it too. And they're certainly capable of this. It'll be interesting to see how Mercedes-Benz'es copes with the change to the new engine design.

BTW sorry about yet another long and unparagraphed ramble-fest.

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Hallo Rishy,

 

schau doch mal hier zum Thema Zubehör für Mercedes AMG (Anzeige)? Eventuell gibt es dort etwas Passendes.

[GIR]

I'd like to see VANOS or variable valve tech BMW has on a Merc. I wonder why they haven't introduced it in their commercial cars, they have been using it for ages in their F1 engines.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Actually they just might add VVT. And to tell you the truth they already HAVE Variable Valve Timing Technology. Their's is more of a CVVT and TVT (Continuously Variable Valve Timing and Trick Valve Timing). According to my programming teacher the programming for valve operations has two paths: One, you write a full-fledged program describing how and when valves would operate in which way, pre-predicting (!) the different cases and scenarios and pressures and all the rest, and mapping them. Or Two, you could make it a source-responsive system where the valves perform reactions when the actions as they happen. (Please don't flame me on that one, I don't even think that's how engine valves work. So anyways, MB has a choice between the two and I don't think going with #1 (which, I beleieve is BMW's root) is necessarily any worse (or better) than going route #2. If there was commong knowledge of which is better, and what type of valve-timing to use, then I imagine all engine-designers would go the same path, because it would be the most efficient and successful. Then again, since as you say Mercedes-Benz F1 cars already use VVT, then they may have plans to bring home VVT in that form, and it could be a matter of time. Then again Merc's valve devisers and sub-computer programmers are doing a splendid job with the current engines, so I don't see why they would even need to. They first have to take care of some other problems. Fuel economy and emissions are two of the main isues Merc has to resolve before moving on to more performance-related inprovements. The average ~270HP Benz engine puts out more (or just about the same amount) of CO2 per KM than the 286HP BMW engnie. And mileage is also not up to par with Beemer's.

[GIR]

The methods you are describing are better know as a Datamap and a Alghorhytme. Datamaps are good for when you have operations which always perform within the expected limits of the data. Alghorhytmes are good for when you don't know what these limits are going to be and you want to calculate the correct settings on the fly.

Datamaps are quick cause the only thing you have todo is look up the data (you can see it like an excel sheet for the uC), alghorhytmes are more intensive and thus require more systemticks. Because it requires more systems ticks it requires more time.

I don't know which CPU BMW and MB use, but they're probably made by Infineon which means it's probably a 8051 or 8052 derative. On most of these processors a systemtick equals 1 nano second or 1/2 nano second.

You can imagine that becuase the MB system needs more time it will be just in time or too late with the adjustments. Also I thought the MB's system used pneumatic driven valves.

As I understand BMW's system constantly recalibrates it's camshaft thus always having an optimal setting.

Getting your software to function in a specified timeframe is a real pain in the arse. In my time at ASML we used to spend thousands of hours coming up with documents specifinging I/O and on paper it's always correct. But once you have to make it there's always some small thingy that will screw it all up. In some of our functions we actually used to insert white functions. These are functions that do nothing but just take up time so that the function would adhear to the specified timing.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Yes I know all about Algorythms and Datamaps (though they are more often just roughs, or the planning of the actual programming; also both are more or less "prediction" or "prefetch" of sequences of events); I'm a C++ programmer. In fact I could probably write a program that times valves, but I would do a very poor job. And what you're talking about with "system ticks" is basically caled "complexity" and has to do with "lifetime" as well.

The Infineon chip's not so much a CPU as it is just a board-dependent chip, a microcontroller. And I think they've all been Infineon/Altium C868 8052s since the last licensing agreements. But it's not even the top of the range fro the 805x series. Only goes up to 40MHz with modified "wind", whereas the best in the 805x has up to 100MHz clock cycles and more RAM/XRAM and ROM momory. The 8051/8052 are apparently BMW's choice because of their efficient (but at the same time) simple CapCom6E Pulse Width Modulators.

A standard system pulse or "tick" is (if I'm right) measured at 1 nanosecond. But that may be what I've learnt at the basic level for ease of use.

I don't know about an pneumatic drive valves in an MB engine. :roll:

But I can confirm that BMW's system DOES INDEED recalibrate itself (which is what I was talking about, adaptive response;) but they pre-programmed it to do so right down to the last "}"! Which in a way eliminates the purpose I think; but then again maybe not since I don't know all that much about it.

White functions are necessary sometimes, but as I understand it they're not the best way to equalize and level-off the time differentiations that occur due to poor float-point operation and what not. Though a better way may be to just make timed functions that perform a task (or simply time themselves) for a certain amount of time at each function or sub-function (depending on how you did that). But the "pain in the arse" is the fun part (at least for some people anyway)! Everything can work out on sketch or on paper but once you debug there will always be one small annoyance that needs to be tracked down or it can thrw off ever calculation or every bt of programming you've done for reasons which you must know about as it sounds like you too are a programmer, GIR. I love debugging, but I guess it stops with simple functions and program setups/layouts. Maybe it's not so fun for valve-timing and shaft-programming!

[GIR]

Not to get too far into the off-topic side, but we have anice conversation going on and fellow carlovers and programmers I guess the mods will look the other way for just a sec (or at least I hope so)

I'm not exactly a C++ programmer, my official title is "Embedded and computing systems engineer"a mouthfull yes but it comes down to that I design custom computer systems or devices wich have integrated (embedded) computer systems. If you'd ask me to code a desktop application (Which is probably your job, correct me if I'm wrong) I could probably do it, but I'd do the worst job ever. If it comes down to it I coudl design a custom computer for you but I coudn't write a full blown OS.

I use HDL, ASM and C the most. My Job comes down to lowest lvl possible and that is custom hardware and software which always works and works well. That is the first and foremost requirement, it always has to work in the predicted way (no bugs).

The original 8051 and 8052 produced by intel were so flexibel that they have found their use in almost every aspect of our lives. You're probably confudes by the board dependecy because there are so many different types of this processor around. As I said these processors are so flexible that you can just about do anything with them. You can crank up the busspeed on systems which have lots of power or make it go just 3.5mhz on battery powerd systems. You can add alot of external and internal I/O devices and there are even chips around with internal RAM and ROM.

Like the before mentioned 80C515A has a internal memory (RAM 512k) and ROM 256k) but also has a bus for expanding xdata. It has a 16bit precission auto-reloading capture compare timer and a A/DC. This one requires around 600mA to power so a small battery is out of the question.

But there's also the Atmel 90C51 which is also a 8051 chip. This chip is all around you. You probably have one in your wallet and didn't even notice it. It's the processor on creditcard size smartcards. It has simple I/O (4 bits) capabilities and integrated 24C64 flash chip.

The 8051/2 and their deratives are by conventional standards CPU's. If it comes down to it your desktop computer can't do anything more or less then a microcontroller.

A systemcycle is not always 1 nanosecond. I'm not sure why you call it a pulse but that's probably the American name for it. There are 12mhz system around with a 1/12 Xtal which means that system has a cycle of 1mhz (1us) and there are even systems around with cycles of 0.01 ns. This is dependent on the precision and time you need for your operations.

I really don't knwo why BMW would chose Infineon above others because they have integrated PWM's. Controlling PWM's is always easy, that's why they invented them. Instead of setting up heavy duty C/C Timers you can just set a few bits and your actuator is running. A more valid reason would be (in my eyes) because Infineon/Siemens is also based in Stutgart so they don't have to travel half way around the world. They're in a sense next door to BMW.

In C++ Desktop apps faster is better. But in embedded systems where some funtions have to have a cycle of (lets say) 10ms, you have to make it take 10ms. If your function only takes 6ms... well to bad then you have to make it run longer that's why we add some useless commands which take very little space and corrects the timing. Teh trick however is with variable timing (like in engines). You have to leave in enough time for your calculations and to min/max time required to set the valves.

I don't think you would be able to write a good valve timing application in C++. Not that I'm challenging you to it or something but C++ is very unpredictable in it's nature and is only intended to make big systems easier to develop. A "small" system like a valve timing system wouldn't require alot of the extra's you get with C++, infact they'de kill the system because of the overhead. For example, first time you want to access a funtion in an object C++ would have to load the complete object into memmory which would require alot of time. But the second time you want to access that function the object would be already in memmory so it would require less time.

This variable nature would mean you'd have a very hard time getting the timing right.

A normal engine runs a max of 8000 rpm.

8000/60 = +/- 133 rps, which is 133hz, which is 7.5 ms.

You would have to complete a cycle of aquiring data, computing and responding within 7.5ms. In C++ the smallest function would take 3ms to load into memmory. which means you only have 4.5ms to compute and set the valve on time. But the second time it's already in memmory so it would only take (guessing) 20us. So you'd have to code in some intelligence which can detect the difference and compensate which again takes up systemtime so you'd also have to compensate for that.

Anywayz enough of the techo blaat. I think you noticed that I like to keep my posts simple without going into tech facts and details too much so the average joe can also follow the conversation.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Hey nice posts. Very informative. I like conversating (whether or not we get into the technicalities or not). And I DID notice you like to keep your posts simple, so sorry if I'm making you do otherwise here. Well I guess we can end the "off-topic" part of the discussion here if anyone is annoyed by it. As for "the mods looking the other way", now that I think about I'm a mod as well (and especially on this forum). So I guess that should say something about it! I'll try to cut the computer-talk anyway. I don't think everyone on these forums knows wat we're talking about (well maybe Fox would).

I am a C++ programmer and, yes, going into "desktop software development and design" (how's that for a mouthfull !?!?! ) and by the looks of it you know a heck of a lot more than I do about specific microcontrollers. However I do know that as you said the 8051 (and 8052) are efficient and simple enough to be used anywhere. I could probably name a few simpler I/O controllers though. Anyways I'm a beginner (i'm only 18 years old) programmer, so if I say anything that doesn't sound familiar just pretend like I don't know what I'm talking about because I could very well be wrong.

I do think I know the following though: the 805x "CPUs" could probably have been clocked to 400MHz to applicate in a Windows-like environment but because of infinite bottle-necks and the insane amount of power needed, that was out of the question. And add to that the cement-burning heat that that would generate, and it's a definite No-No.

By the way I think I could think of quite a few environment and generation-specific things that 805x CPUs could never dream of doing.

But anyway, it sounds like you have to do a bit of debugging yourself if your job is to make everything "work and work well"! Must be fun eh?!

As for system "cycles", you can call them pretty much anything you want, from tick to cycle to pulse to heart-beat to whatever you want to dream-up! By the way I don't live in 'America', I live in Canada. I don't know if different countries have specific names for it, but in Canada we go with the flow. For me, pulse and cycle float my boat.

As I said before, that may only be what I remember from the days of basic. I'm sure you could measure it at 0.01ns as well. As starter-level programmers, though, it is usualy recommended for us to use the most easy-to-use and trouble-free units and measurements. At the moment that seems to be 1ns.

You are absolutely right on why BMW and Mercedes-Benz (and possibly others) chose Infineon, though. Stuttgart-based Infineon is successful and is also in partnership with companies like BMW in more than 1 specific product/sub-product category. Infineon may well have dirtied their hands a bit in every electronic gizmo you find in a Beemer. You're right that is without doubt a more likely reason for it.

I completely agree on the embeddedness issue as well. However the beauty of C++ is that it's flexibility reaches beyond it's domain, which means you can bend the rules in C++ to your delight and take advantage of it's features to actually do some things easier than you would do without C++. I read somewhere that C++ is extensively (and unaided at that) used for valve-timing and other such aims.

I'm not sure if simplicity in that form is ever a problem for C++, but I'll have to check on that. I do believe that you can give even parts of the object "life-time"s though, which means that they wouldn't load in their entirety into memory, and would be recalled or passed off whenever you wish them to. I can't really dispute the numbers though until I have some of my own!

But what you're talking about is actually something professional coders deal with almost on a daily-basis. They set up “per-situation-perception and adaptation” maps, which means each specific run-off cycle (for example for time compensation) would be made-up for with compensation from a pre-programmed set of routines, and the next occurring “time-fault” would also be compensated for before it even happened, based on how much a system-bus-rooted loss (or gain) of time was calculated in the first (or first few) cycles. It’s tremendously harsh coding though. Kind of like making a function that calculates a number to the power of 2, then to the power of 3, and then would anticipate the increase caused by the fourth power at the cube; if that makes any sense to you. Sorry that’s probably a horrible explanation.

Also, I don't think there's a standard for how long a memory I/O operation would take in C++. That's probably reliant on the processing speed too.

Anyway I think you're right. We've taken this thing waaay too far! If you want to continue this I'd be glad to respond as long as no one is getting irritated.

-izzy

[thepolarfoxqx]

I come to this forum to talk cars and get free of my EE and CS freinds. They take their ecu's apart, hook them up to laptops, and do odd things driving around. My best freind has a palm pilot that allows him to modify ignition and fuel injection settings on his mustang.

BMW varies on both intake and exhaust indapendantly with infinite tapered varying cams. I believe they use a siemens system for theirs. I know the much simpler system that merc uses (their VVT controller is a simple integrated part of the mototronic system) an infineon controller.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Wow you know some amazing people.

The BMW system is indeed a Siemens system, but that doesn't make it any different from Mercedes-Benz. Siemens and Infineon are basically the same company. Or one is owned by the other or someting of that sort. Technically they both use the smae Infineon controllers.

[GIR]

Fox: Infineon is a daughter company of Siemens. Siemens decided 2 years ago to house all their microcontoller/processor projects under Infineon so it would be easy to manage.

Maybe BMW had a contract directly with Siemens but I'm 100% sure that Siemens either moved that contract to Infineon or Siemens kept the contract and just supplies them through Infineon.

Infineon only makes the hardware btw. I'm not sure wether BMW only buys the hardware. If they buy a complete hard- software solution then they'de need to go through Siemens which means that Siemens produces the software and Infineon produces the hardware.

I've seen someone do a thing like you're describing with the Palm Pilot but it only could read out values from the ECU. I wasn't impressed by this at all cause most of them were useless values anyway, a simple oil pressure and airflow gauge could suffice. If your friends programmed their own incar logic.. now that's impressive.

Izzy: Tick, pulse, cycle I won't bother you with it anymore

Anywayz I hate debugging. In C++ I've noticed if something doesn't work then you can change a few things, fidell around a bit and suddenly it works. In my job you can forget about that. If something doesn't work then you can play around with it all you like it won't work. You have to start all over again and analyse why it didn't work in the forst place. Very depressive as you can imagine.

C, C++, Delphi, Pascal, etc non of them have documentation like that. What I'm talking about is ASM (Assembler) it is the lowest lvl possible of coding before you get to inserting bits manualy. ASM can be interpreted by the processor self and all the operations of ASM are documented like that. ASM doesn't know functions or datatypes. It only has a list of operations starting at adres 0000 going to adress FFFF. The processor just starts reading at 0000 and goes from there. C++ is just a work around for this. You write in a half machine understandable half human understandable language and the compiler translates this to ASM.

An example on how ASM looks:

02 40 00

02 means LJMP Long Jump (jump to adress) followed by the adress it has to jump to 40 00. A long jump takes 3 bytes (1 for instruction and 2 for adress) and needs 2 systemcycles to process (A 8bit processor and 16bit adress means twice the time).

[thepolarfoxqx]

my best freind. the carnegie mellon computer science guy - he reads hex like it were english. right now he is working on a full machine vision system capable of driving a car with faster reaction time than a human being. He made a circuit and programmed the little AVR chips on there to mirror the EEPROM chip - and had the ECU opperate from there. He then communicated with the AVR - and modified where neccesary in real time. It was cool. He had one a while back that interfaced the ECU on the car - and would have it change - but this was prolematic - so now he has his little atmel board ECU interface deal thing. I don't know the technical details, but it works.

Infineon is an american company. Well, they were until siemens ate them. That is kinda interesting. The BMW straight six engines feature Siemens full solution, the V8s and 12s run on Bosch systems. They both feature the same system. I guess that makes sense now.

[Xcellere]

Any idea when we'll be able to purchase the CL65?

[thepolarfoxqx]

2004 model year. Say end of this year?

[GIR]

My dealer predicts it will out around August this year. North America will get it around December or Januari I guess.

[thepolarfoxqx]

north america never gets anything worthwhile on time

then again, sometimes canada doesn't get them at all

[Tsar Kalojan]

...should go to USA as soon as possible, but the guys from 'Fast Lane' will get it first:-)