The Ultimate BMW

[thepolarfoxqx]

What happened to the great M5s?

Remember the 3.5/3.6 litre inline 6 M5s, the ones that made 315hp from 3.5L and were faster than the fastest corvette of the day. They were smooth, sounded great, and had so much power. I miss the old inline 6 cars. Anyone else love the old M5 (i wish i had enough money laying around to buy one)

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Hallo thepolarfoxqx,

 

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[Seb2]

Yes they are great car but the Alpina cars those years was even better. The last I6 M5 was 3.8l right?. Those engines are nowdays quite popular turbocharging. I guess in USA you see quite different on those cars.

[thepolarfoxqx]

Seb, I am beginning to think that swedes are truly obsessed with turbochargers. greater than 90% of all swedish cars sold in the US are factory turbocharged, and now you are talking about turbocharging a BMW? The last M5 I6 sold in the states was just shy of 3600cc. I think it is blasphamous to turbocharge a BMW engine. They are naturally designed around amazing output naturally aspirated, that is half of their magic. What is a high performance I-6 without an 11+ compression ratio? I think that BMW works art in their engines, and mettling with that is wrong (like having someone retouch the sistine chapel ceiling to be more attractive).

[Seb2]

Like some week ago here a old E30 with I6 3.8l turbocharged run 1/4 mile with a speed of 221km/h in the end. I think this is faster then a Mclaren F1 for example.

[thepolarfoxqx]

That is an incredible number for such a heavy car (not to mention sporting a modest sized engine). Is that a "drivable car" - like could i take it to work everyday - like the stock M5, i wonder why the 3.8 never made it to the US? I am hoping the new BMW 3.5 (upwards of 260hp - perhaps approaching 300) makes it to the 3 series, I have always loved the big inline sixes, and that would be a blast to drive.

I also wonder why even the current generation M5 4.9L in all of its high tech power (8 throttle bores - infinately variable intake and exhaust etc.) can only muster 80.4 HP/L (394hp), but the previous generation US (which was a 3.6L I6) made 315hp on 3.58 litres (88 hp/L) without any such valvetiming or throttle technology - and the both get the same fuel economy (not good).

I am dissapointed with the current M5 - it simply doesn't embody that "at the limits" feeling the old I6's had - and I am hoping V10 will have.

[Seb2]

You know the M3 and old M5 I6 blocks are so strong i think they are of iron. They weight alot. The new M5 engine is of alu if im right and weight the same as the old I6. But the big different here is the torque. The I6 makes their power on topend V8 makes their power all the way.

About 3.8L i think that was about emission tests. I think its California wich has very hard rules. Like the Euro M3 E36 first 3.0l and the 3.2l didnt get trought the emissions tests. So you got one hotted 328 engine or something lame.

[Seb2]

I forgot that in Germany theres some good tuners if you have the money they work out another 60hp on your M5. So the engine isnt realy at the limit.

[thepolarfoxqx]

The I6 engines do top out, high, just like the V10 coming up will have to (to make projected numbers), Iron blocks are nice for this application. Our E36 M5 was really weak, it was just a bigger 2.8 - and redlined at 6200. I think the magnesium block would provide the stiffness or iron, but magnesium can be brittle, and is hard to work with. Just the same, the 4.9L V8 strikes me as a bigger and slightly tuned 4.4L - it is a great engine, but the I6 were always the sporty M5s to me.

No one gets by California emissions with a perfrormance car. Most cars have to be modified for sales there (with the exception of the Japanese of course). I am suprised emissions standards are easier in europe

[Seb2]

E36 M3=).

Rules are very hard in Europe. Atleast most countries in the Union. I thought like you. Remember that Bush wouldnt sign some papers about emission standards. But maby its that theres so many people in CA and it has to meat a normal level. I also heard only allowed 91 octane fuel in CA. Maby thats why many cars dont realy like that shitty fuel.

[thepolarfoxqx]

Well, true bush won't sign legislation that requires lower sulfur levels in gasoline and diesel fuels (he is an oil boy) - he said they would cost the oil industry too much.

In california - you can still buy 87, 89, 91, and 94 octane fuels, but they are required to be oxydized fuels (ie: MBTE or ethanol enhanced). Also, california is liberal enough politically to pass clean air laws. Florida, who is actually more denseley populated (and worse poluted) has no such laws in place. The reason for so much interest in clean air cars being imported into the US is largely due to CARB - in fact, BMW's 3.0 (225hp) and 2.5 (184hp) engines are now certified ULEV (ultra low emissions vehicles). The japanese cars although have an overwhelming lead in this category - in fact, I think almost every Japanese import to the us is ULEV (all being LEV). This suprises me, as I though Europe would have tighter restrictions as well.

It is too bad although these stopped the 3.8 from making it here.

In fact, when clean air laws came out here, cars nearly died - corvette went from 330+ horsepower to under 150 in a single year.

I am just happy that the 3.2L I6 that made it to M3 E46 got in. It is too bad it doesn't sound better. The big sixes sounded great before - and I am expecting great things from 3.5 (i am hoping M roadster (Z4 iteration) gets a version of this - as M3 is getting a V8 - and I don't know that a V8 would fit into the narrow hood of a Z car.

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Hallo thepolarfoxqx,

 

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[///Slider]

What happened to the great M5s?

There are still out there! I can only speak for myself, but mine is a daily driver -- and there are still several of these E34 beasts prowling about here in Germany.

I wonder why the 3.8 never made it to the US?

I'm oversimplifying things, to be sure, but you have to look at the development cycle of the E34 M5 to really understand this question. When this care was first unleashed upon the U.S. market, it carried the same 3.6 liter 310 hp engine that the Euro spec M5s had, and it sold quite well. This engine was much more than adequate, to understate the matter.

In late 1992, some rather direct competition from Mercedes forced BMW to "upgun" the S38 engine a bit to retain its bragging rights. The result was the 3.8 liter S38 which made (by the time all was said and done) 347 hp in European trim. While the latter was still a very clean engine -- considering the high output -- it would have been an expensive proposition for BMW NA to put this powerplant through EPA certification for sale in the U.S. Further, it just didn't make much sense to to do, when you consider that 55 mph was the legal limit in most of the U.S. at the time (the M5 will do 55 mph all day long in 2d gear). More to the point, by this time, M5 sales in the U.S. had tapered off dramatically, as the car's niche market had reached near-saturation. Some rather dramatic price increases (from $45k to $60k in a two year period) also had a dampening effect upon domestic sales.

The numbers in support of a U.S. 3.8 liter M5 just didn't add up, and this market continued to receive the 3.6 liter engine, right up until production of the 3.6 ended in March of 1993. Such was not to be the case in Europe, where the M cars all carried the stronger 3.8 liter engine from 1993 until 1995. There are a few 3.8s running around in the States which have undergone costly "federalization," but in general, any E34 M5 you see in North America is going to be a 3.6 -- and still a firebreather in it's own right.

Today, the 3.6 cars are generally available for <$20k, while the far-rarer 3.8 examples often command $30k or more. A market has recently developed to bring more of the 3.8s over from the continent, so these prices may drop a bit over the next several months.

[thepolarfoxqx]

There was no real competition to the M5 at that time, the MB E500 came close, but was an automatic and lacked the feel of a performance car. If I had the money, I would have an M5 3.6 in a heartbeat. I understand full well the capabilities of the car and that the 3.8 was simply too expensive to import - though with the cost of the M5 - and people's willingness to buy them, I think any cost BMW had to add to the bottom line would have been eagerly paid. I just think it is too bad. I have never much been a fan of the V8 M5 - it feels too much like 540i 6speed with more grunt - instead of a totally different car. It is all mid-level torque - as opposed to the old I-6 that wound stronger as it reved. I have a feeling that the new V10 M5 will be similar, getting stronger with every RPM higher, but it still won't be fire-breathing six. I guess I will just have to settle for the ultra-docile (yet very potent) 3.2L M3 E46 if I want a six.

[MPowerkd8]

Well, Id act quick. When BMW is going to change the 3-Series coupe to the 4-Series, the M4(M3), will have a high-revving V8. I kinda like the idea and kinda dont.

[thepolarfoxqx]

All of the new MPower engines will be high rev units. Extremely high rev. The M3/M4 (whatever you'll call, probably both, word is an M3 sedan), will get a tuned version of the 4.5L V8 - one producing in the 400-430 region (how is that for the RS4 folks?), it will be direct injected (as with most new BMW engines). It is likely it will be as silky as the 4.5L in the 745, I just wish it were an inline six. It will also likely be lighter than current versions. Weight savings is a major issue at BMW, now that their cars are the heaviest for their size in their respective categories. I am just glad they are keeping them RWD, AWD just doesn't feel right to me. Of course you all know about the 5.5L V10 going to the M5, and if you hold your breath, you might just see an M7 coming - with a 6.0L and 650hp V12. Word is although that the next generation M Roadster (based on the new Z4) will continue using the 3.2L 315hp until the 3.5L I6 debuts.

I have heard pretty certain word that there will be no turbocharged engines of any type out of BMW.

[MPowerkd8]

Since when did BMW deny that htey would put a twin-turbo in-line six in the new 5-Series? I think that they still will.

[thepolarfoxqx]

BMW said they will not use an inline six twin turbo. This is probably due to a cost of development (new ground for bimmer). For the 360-400hp model to fill the space beween M5 550hp and 545i 330hp - will more than likely use a tuned version of the 4.4L (like the one slated to go into M3) or a Valvetronic 4.6L (cross the 4.6L in X5 4.6is and 4.4L in the 745). Not only would this step out of model line heirarchy, but it would also be going into types of engineering that BMW has no history in. BMW flatly denied every single press inquiry I have seen published when asked if a twin turbo inline six, or twin turbo of any type will be going into a BMW.

I guess if you want a twin turbo inline six you can always buy a volvo.

[bimmerboy]

i really love the BMW E34 M5. it is a 1993 model, the last year for the handbuilt North American M5. COPY AND PASTE THIS

http://www.strictlybmw.com/gallery/album03

[thepolarfoxqx]

God bless ya.

I am hoping to get my hands on an M5 E34, To me, it is the quintessential modern BMW (the quintessential BMW being 2002). I hope bimmer comes out with another great straight six car.

[vanquish007]

Yes, the old M5s sure had more character than the current ones. There are a few even in Australia, so I'd expect many to be still around in Europe. Those cars were seriously interesting in power, the way it was developed and handling. Genuine wishing of good luck to anyone trying to buy one of these older M5s.

[thepolarfoxqx]

my fear is that these new bimmers will loose touch with the warm bavarian character that made them a cut above the typically cold and efficent german cars.

[digger]

Hey thepolarfoxqx BMW has had history with turbo charging although not very recently!!

[thepolarfoxqx]

well, way back when, everyone it seems played with the turbos, but they have been the only german carmaker in the last decade to not use forced induction, and their cars have been top notch just the same, if not better for it.

[P.I.M.P]

the new M6 will be the ULTIMATE bimmer

[All Wheel Drive]

The big sixes sounded great before - and I am expecting great things from 3.5 (i am hoping M roadster (Z4 iteration) gets a version of this - as M3 is getting a V8 - and I don't know that a V8 would fit into the narrow hood of a Z car.

Just for information, Hartge builds the Harge Roadster from the 2.5 Z4 with an M5 4.9 in it. So the Z4 has the potential for V8.

[thepolarfoxqx]

of course it has the potential. You can fit the M70 V12 into an E30, there is the potential. The V8 is heavier, and Z4 is all about lightweight and balance. Furthermore, because it is lighter, it doesn't need as much for horsepower, and do you know what hartge had to do to fit it in? They had to make a hole in the oil pan for the steering linkage to go through. Want to drop the oil pan, gotta take apart the steering. BMW wouldn't do that.