Vindicated.

[jterp]

My specs for the SRT-4 neon came from

http://www.fast-autos.net/dodge/dodgesrt4.html

Mind you this is for a stock 2003 SRT-4 --- for '04 the car gets a LSD and 15 extra hp.

Also found this:

Car & Driver recently did a skidpad and autocross between a 1997 Cobra, Saturn, Neon, and Miata. On race slicks, the Neon was the *only* car able to pull over 1G of lateral acceleration

(this is from http://www.allpar.com/neon/neonacr.html )

"On race slicks" -- SRT-4 on race slicks is a whole different story.

Also found this on the same site:

They are ultra-smooth at 95+ miles per hour, and in 4th gear, they're still pulling strong at that speed. Basically, an ACR consists of zero weight-adding options, adjustable Koni shocks for '97, beefy front and rear sway bars, four wheel disk brakes without ABS, alloys with performance tires, unlimited-speed engine controller, bigger radiator, specially-geared transmission, tach.

--

The SRT-4 has all of the same upgrades as the ACR car --- plus 100+ FWHP. Yes, it weighs more but the balance is nearly equal

(SRT-4 - 1836/1033 = 64/36)

(ACR - 1001/2567 = 61/39)

I think it is just as capable at low speed contests (auto-x) and ALSO capable at track events and drag strips.

Izzy the porsche is no doubt "smoother" -- no one said it wasn't. Please forgive me for not taking the time to review all of your posts from the last year before responding - I was under the assumption that we were talking about this topic now. Regardless, nothing has "bitten me in the ass" yet.

it's still a sedan that was crappy to begin with, and now it's on steroids wearing a bra

-- This is an opinion -- and a completely unfounded one at that. "Was crappy to begin with?" Why, because you say so? Or because it doesn't have a blue and white propellor on the hood?

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Hallo thepolarfoxqx,

 

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[djfux69]

i dont think you are getting the point bleh was trying to prove. i agree with him. he said never said neons were uncabable in autocross. he said this one has too much power to not have serious understeer in turns. which means, less time on the throttle, and slower corner exit. on a technical course the ACR will win every time. on an open course the srt will will because of sheer power.

[jterp]

I understand the point he is trying to make -- I just do not agree with it and was asking why he thought that way. Why would a car on a similar platfom, with similar suspension components, and nearly identical balance that has 100 fewer hp (for auto-x case read: slower 0-60 sprints) be faster? I am not flaming -- just asking for rationalization.

A point I forgot to touch on earlier -- switch the platforms in the S2000 and the SRT-4? ... I would love to see a RWD SRT-4 -- that is obvioulsy the only piece of the puzzle missing ... Why a FWD S2000 though?

Switch the engines? -- I think a torquey turbo S2000 would be fun as well, but the high reving torque deficient honda motor in the neon? why bother?

[izzyloveslizzy]

Jterp, you don't seem to understand the point I'm trying to make, and besides you insist on turning it around and calling what I say "an opinion" whereas yours is apparently the legit *onions* here 'cuz you're the king of car world or something. I can't help if you've never been to Europe. MAYBE in North-America the SRT-4 proves to be good value (performance-per-dollar-wise), but if we had the Elise or the VX-220 here (we WILL get the Elise and Exige soon) the Neon would be done. And I repeat, it's not just my opinion that the Neon's not a good sedan to begin with - it JUST IS a low-quality sedan. Reliable, some might say, and fast for the dollar, others might protest. But anyone who's even driven Chrysler's other bigger sedans would have to be lying through their teeth to tell you the Neon's better. Whether you wanna face reality or not, Dodge has had many better products that were contenders in their respective categories even to the Blue/White propeller's offerings in their own right. And I'm NOT biased against Dodge or American cars (in fact, if I was gonna buy an American car it'd be either Dodge or Chrysler), so quit throwing that mud at the wall. The Boxster may be terrible value against the SRT-4 but if there were 2 cars in the world I'd save up and go with a Boxster. Besides, I'll bet you I can modify the Boxster and make it 10 times as hyper as the SRT-4 without making the engine choke to death. Besides if you like buzzy 4-cyl motors then that's YOUR opinion and I don't care to change that. But I find it hard to believe that the SRT-4 handles as smoothly as a Boxster any day of the week. And as I hear, you can't go too crazy in the wet with the Neon, unless you like having your car smeared all over the road on it's side. And anyways what exactly gave you the

I agree with the last thing you said in your last post though. Putting a torque-less Honda 4 in the Neon would be degrading to Dodge and yourself. Better to stick with the Neon engine. And as far as high-revving buzzers go you could still find a more potent engine out there (one that won't crap-out after you slap on a bigger turbo adding 140HP - believe me I've seen it happen and it was as devestating to the engine as when one of my buddy's friends NOS'ed his Civic).

[LateNightCable]

Just a quick note, as a Moderator of this forum, I reserve the right to replace potentially offensive words with the word " onions ". It's not only more pleasant, but just plain funny.

Anyway, no Lotus is going to cost $20,000 so forget that comparison. I think it would be a sensible opinion if someone thought the SRT/4 was " better " than Chryslers other sedans. The Neon is what it is, a 15-20k car, not a 40k car built badly, so this talk of inferior quality is not entirely justified. Many I'm sure would say that the SRT/4 is the most intelligent high-performance effort Chrysler has made in a log time, as opposed to things like the Viper and Ram SRT/10 which in comparison are unbridaled excess and insanity.

The Neon SRT/4 is a real car you can use everyday, with a trunk, and a backseat, but also admirable performance to any car in it's class, and some above it. If there were only two cars in the world for you to choose, I can understand why you would choose a Boxter Izzy, afterall, the Box does have some merit, there are a lot of cars I would rather have than an SRT/4. But thats' not the point, no one said it was the finest car ever made, nothing of the sort. And Jterp never said that the SRT/4 was " smoother " than the Boxter, also last time I checked, it's not too smart to get too crazy in the rain no matter what car you're in, including a Boxter.

Lastly, Hondas' do not take well to extreme modifications, I remember we discussed that once. And I imagine boosting the output of an engine 60% would put a strain on any engine, even a Porsche. The SRT/4 has plenty of life in it, thats' why 10% of it's owners so far have taken advantage of the available upgrade kits. Only in it's second year of production, and it keeps getting better. I see some pretty killer modified SRT/4s' down the road. Think of this Neon as The Little Engine That Could, or Peter Pan with real firepower, whichever you like best.

[bleh]

FWHP. Yes, it weighs more but the balance is nearly equal

(SRT-4 - 1836/1033 = 64/36)

(ACR - 1001/2567 = 61/39)

nearly equal would be 64/36 and 63.5/36.5. you really screwed that one up, and you didnt need to do that, i already posted it up higher. now the determining factor is where those extra 300lbs are. roughly 32lbs are added to the srt4s rear while how much is put over the wheels that will be prone to oversteer? hmmm

Indeed the Srt-4 is FWD -- and I do concede that the boxster gets a point for being RWD. Even as a front drive vehicle, however, the SRT-4 manages to put down better skidpad numbers. (Essentially doing more with less)..

funny that you post this then in your next post you put:

On the 200 ft skidpad, the porsche boxster S pulled .89g. On the 200 ft skidpad the STOCK SRT-4 pulled .86g. I concede that the porsche has a slight advantage here.

but on the source you just provided they said it was .85g...

[jterp]

I assume by this last post that you have no more ground to stand on inyour argument and are reduced to picking out technicalities to argue about.

Some clarification (without annoying quote boxes)-

I know all of that info is on the ACR. You claimed the ACR could pull 1g. I showed you proof that the 1g skidpad numbers came on race slicks-- not the street tires that the SRT-4 was tested on -- thereby making it an unequal comparrison.

I then went on to point out what components distinguished an ACR neon from a regular neon -- and then explained that the SRT-4 has all of these components also, plus extra power. -- 300 lbs. is not that much more weight when you consider the extra power and torque it has.

The weight comment was reiterated to put it into percentages (which is a much easier way to talk about weight distribution) We all know that the SRT is 300 lbs heavier -- why bother bringing actual weight into a distribution conversation. I admit I typed in the actual weights incorrectly -- but the math still stands. The SRT 4 has 64 percent of its weight over the front while the ACR has 61 percent and vice versa. I admit these are not optimal numbers -- but you ranted and raved about how much you loved the ACR and all of a sudden the SRT-4 with a 3% shift in weight handles so poorly that it can't be competetive on a track? Come on.

As far as the numbers go -- as I said, the link I sent to you was for a stock 2003 SRT-4 from BEFORE THE ADDITION OF LSD. I have spoken to the folks at mopar performance that have tested these cars and the ones with LSD (standard for '04) are more capable than the ones without. Unfortunately I was unable to find test results on the internet. If the non - LSD cars were capable of .85g then the ones with LSD are capable of AT LEAST .86 and are probably capable of .89 --

best be off to the proctologist!

Counting our chickens before they hatch?

Izzy the Elise is $40k. The neon is $20k. The comparrison? What does going to Europe have to do with this conversation? The cars available in Europe have nothing to do with the cars available in the US. And how do you know where I have been ? DO you know me? Do you know anything about me besides my screen name? That was an extremely ignorant and childish comment to make.

If you are going to make a claim about a car being of poor quality, the burden of proof lies on you as the person who makes the claim to justify that claim.

I know you would buy the boxster first. No one said you wouldn't. The argument is about which performs better and at which track. And for the SECOND TIME, no one made any claim that the neon is "smoother."

I do see your points just fine, they just do not appear to fit into this argument at all.

[djfux69]

but what about the fact that srt has more power? i think it would be much easier to break loose in a corner with an srt than with an acr. in fact my friend that goes to the mopar events confirms this. he said at everyturn they smoke the tires, weather its a mistake, or its just WOT at the apex. you cant drive that car like a rwd car. thats the reason i dislike it, it has too much power for the platform.

[jterp]

Finally, a good point. Thank you -- I agree that you can not have the car at WOT in the apex -- but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed it is harder to drive than a car with less power, but with throttle control it can go through the turns at the same speed (as shown by the skidpad results.)

When I tracked my M3 the last time the corevtte guys had to go through the turns with less than WOT whereas I was WOT most of time. If they were bad drivers they would indeed spin the tires in the turn and slow down enough for me to keep up with them -- but the good drivers knew how much throttle their car could handle and were untouchable

[bleh]

the annoying quotes? is it that bad? no more ground to stand? no i had realized that i shouldve double checked all of your statistics. i still dont think the srt4 is as good of an all around car as the boxter.

i never said the acr could pull 1g. my whole point with the acr neon was that it is very different from the srt4. mainly due to weight.

i wonder whether an lsd would effect a skidpad rating for the positive. youll have to break that down for me.

yes roughly 270lbs more over the front tires makes a huge different in how the car handles especially if its a front wheel drive car that weighs less than 3000lbs and with all the extra torque it has. thats not a good point?

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[LateNightCable]

its simple, weight and balance. the 1g neon was the best for my tastes.

I can't help but point this out. Either way, I think the SRT has enough grunt to pull ahead in the straights, regardless of any possible cornering limits.

[bleh]

by "the 1g neon" i ment the 1st generation neon.

[thepolarfoxqx]

in 5 pages of crap, not much was said.

The boxster is a convertible, it has competitive numbers, it isnt a neon, and has a great sports car feel and spirit - and the automotive press agrees with me.

to my knowledge, the srt4 has yet to win any award - thats all i am saying.

[LateNightCable]

4 days and not much has come from you either. And what you just said is no news flash.

Automotive press awards are fair consolation when one is getting whipped on the street by a Neon.

[thepolarfoxqx]

whipped on the street by a neon - i dont think so

[jterp]

Sport Compact Car Magazine Car Of The Year Award: 2003 Dodge Neon SRT-4http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0302scc_neon/

Oh wow, a magazine likes this car, it must be the best car around!!

Fox - one cannot get 'whipped' by a nice interior, one cannot get 'whipped' by a convertible top. One cannot get 'whipped' by "REFINEMENT" -- One can only be 'whipped on the street' by pure performance -- The neon SRT-4 can whip a boxster S on the street.

For the record, not commenting on topic for a week and then chiming in with "5 pages of crap, and not much was said" does not make you sound cool --

[skyline_r34v]

Why is everybody still defendin the Boxster S when they know its outdone by the SRT-4??

Are ya'll jus so anal that a pos neon that turned into a damn good neon whips a Porsche??

C'mon now.

[bleh]

na, this thread has actually proved to be one of the most truth seeking threads ive ever posted on. my views on the car have changed quite a bit.

through the course of this argument ive done a lot of research with the srt4 and have pretty much come to the conclusion that it is most definitely a badass fwd drag car. it can be modded to have well over 400hp with entirely stock internals. yea stock internals. that is quite impressive to me.

however(you knew this was coming) if money didnt matter i would take the boxter. reasons already discussed. mainly feel and handling, thus in my eyes the porche is still better.

the srt4 does deserve some respect, especially if it has been tuned by the right person.

EDIT: the highest dynos ive seen were 400hp on stock internals. i posted 600 before cus someone was talking smack on another forum:there was no proof.

[LateNightCable]

Fox doesn't " think so ", but I know so.

As tested by Car&Driver ...

.......... 2003 Porsche Boxster .......... 2003 Dodge SRT/4

.................... $50,840 ............................ $ 19,995

............. 228 hp. - 192 lb.ft. ............ 215 hp. - 245 lb.ft.

0-60 ................ 6.0 ................................... 5.6 ( M&T got 5.4 )

1/4 mi ............ 14.6 .................................. 14.1

70-0 ............... 161 ft. ............................... 167 ft.

skidpad ........... .93 ................................... .85

top speed ........ 148 ................................... 153

And $51,000 gets' you into just a base Boxster. And the SRT/4 is even stronger for 2004, with 230 hp. 250 lb.ft. and a limited slip.

[jterp]

Bleh is right -- this thread has been very interesting...

with $50k to spend I would never buy a boxster, but I wouldn't turn around and buy an SRT-4 either. There are plenty of cars in the middle -- so the comparrison of 'which one to buy' is kind of a mute (sp:moot???) point. The only argument that was ever in question was which one performs better -- and apparently the only true way to find out is to dig up a member who owns an SRT-4 and send him over to fox's house.

[bleh]

unfortunately this forum is not big enough for more than 2 of us to live within an hour of each other.

either way, i thought you guys would think this setup was pretty interesting:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=707296

i think the real problem with that setup is the dinky intercooler... definitely too small, even though its thick, for that massive snail. imagine what he can do if he upgrades the entire fuel system...

this is also very impressive. its from srtforum.com, but i cant find out where on that forum it is. the link for the highlights on ht are in this link:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=742674

[jterp]

unfortunately this forum is not big enough for more than 2 of us to live within an hour of each other.

Fox strikes me as more of a 64MPH in the right lane kind of guy anyway.

Those guys in the links are on the right track -- they think they can get to 400 whp without changing the internals -- and they'll probably get there! Those cars are really neat. I'm glad dodge is embracing the low budget tuneable hotrod again (and so effectively!)

[LateNightCable]

Dodge started the bare bones performance market in the 60s', I'm glad to see them starting that up again. Someone needs to. I don't think a lack of " features " or whatever is something that should be looked down upon, when a car like the SRT takes cars twice as expensive to the cleaners.

There is a market for cheap cars with real tuning potential. Give people the basics, so they can spend their money on the stuff that matters, so in the long run you'll have a major speed machine thats' still cost less than a Porsche.

People ragging on the Neon just because it's a Neon have no case at all. Personally, I would gain much satisfaction from wasting hotshots in a car that some people thought of as " gay ". It's good to be gay then I guess.

There is just something so cool about taking out the haters in a car they think looks like a joke." Whos' laughing now biatch!? "

[bleh]

they did get 415hp on stock internals. that blows my mind. most of the guys are speculating a broken transmission or broken axles real soon.

[LateNightCable]

They didn't mention any times, have they done any or are they just playing around on the dyno all day?