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LateNightCable

Why does Toyota have a bad rep here?...

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LateNightCable
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I have noticed that some people here think Toyotas are no good. How can you say that? You have the bland but trusty Camry :) , every Lexus is basically a Toyota and Lexus' are renowned for their refinement 8) . Also the racy Celica, MR2, and the old Supra :P - who can honestly say those are " bad " cars?

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thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

uh - generally because they suck

ok, no they are blande, the GM of Japan, their engineering has always been behind Honda, and recently they are falling behind Nissan.

I have never respected toyota's engineering, the lack of any character in their cars AT ALL, and the fact that they always tune to blande and unoffensive over anything exciting.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

That still doesn't explain Lexus. The LS sedan for one has been a smooth luxury favorite ( albeit bland ) since way back, the 320 hp twin-turbo Supra was hardly bland and conservative. And what other car like the little MR2 Spyder is there for the same money? It takes some kind of nerve to serve a 2-seater niche market.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

the supra has been gone for a while. they hardly sell any MR2s, the celica has a needlessly high winding engine with what could be the most narrow torque band of any production engine. The cars they sell are the most blande in all categories. The LS430 is something like 8 mph slower than both the 7 series and S class through the slalom. I believe the qualifies the LS as a barge. The ES is too close to being a top line camry, the GS is very fast and refined, though handling is poor, steering and braking numb, it just doesn't feel sporty. It does although feel much larger than it is. IS is very sporty, and somehow lacks practicality at all which is very un toyota. It handles like a BMW, but doesn't ride like one, or have the practical and elegant interior.

bleh
Geschrieben

a few of people on these forums are anti rice. i am a fan of the supra for its aftermarket ability. also the older generation of the mr2 was a beautiful machine and ahead of its time. but toyotas prime has passed.

the new camry is a joke. one of my friends had to rent one for while his car was in the shop. he complained until he got his car back. it didnt feel like a boat but it didnt feel like a car. it was strictly a people mover.

as far as the is300(altezza) goes it started a horrible trend in the japanese market. i was very unimpressed by the car. a year ago i had driven a 2002 is300 one day and a 98 328is the next. the 328 was much better in every aspect even though it was 4 years older.

dont get me wrong though, i do love toyotas and most japanese cars, but you get what you pay for.

the sc430 is a more worthy machine to compare against its competition even though it is only available in automatic.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i think some of the old toyotas were awsome cars, but that was back when they built cars like they were going to be driven. Supra was a very solidly engineered car, not my taste, but I will give it credit as being a fast car easily made faster. The OLD MR2 was a decent car, i don't see how it was THAT visionary, keep in mind that GM had the pontiac fiero at about the same time that was the same concept of a car (small, tight, mid engine sports car with interesting technological features). The IS300 does handle well, but it compromises everything else. You are hesitent to drive it hard because it rides that poorly. Some things in it are just stupid, the steel shift knob, who honestly wants to touch steel in the dead of winter or the heat of summer? It is not a practical car. Camry is awful. They are slow, blande, handle incredibly poorly (i love how they try to convince you it is sporty), don't feel pleasant. Look at it, 192hp 3.0L V6 Camry (only available with an automatic) VS 3.0L 220hp Mazda 6, 3.0L 240hp Honda Accord, 3.5 240hp Nissan Altima, and 3.8L 235hp Mitsubishi Galant, all but gallant are available with a stick shift, all are equally priced. Why would you ever buy the camry? The Accord has it beat in every possible way, Altima is bigger, much much faster, and more comfortable, and Mazda can handle circles around it. The SC430 is pretty crumby when you look at its competition, cars like SL500, CLK500, Jaguar XK8, and the upcoming BMW 6-Series. The SC430 doesn't handle well at all, it is fast, but no faster than a CLK500. I give them credit for a convertible hardtop, but mercedes has been doing it for years now. SC430 just doesn't do much for me, it is for its segment what GS430 is for midsize sport sedans.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

The LS430 may be a " barge " in comparison to the 7-Series and S-Class, but it's focus is a little different. It's less about sporty handling and more about smooth ride and no fuss, it's refinement has been compared to Roll-Royce and you wouldn't expect a Rolls to give you a thrill ride. You would get a BMW, or an AMG or even a Bentley.

The fact that Toyota" hardly sells any MR2s " in Fox's own words, just drives home that it takes some nerve to still produce it, afterall, the Pontiac Fiero has been gone for ages.

Fox mentioned that Toyota has recently been falling behind Nissan suggesting that Nissan was near the bottom of the barrel, but I have never heard anyone rag on Nissans like they do Toyotas. I don't hear anyone complaining about the steel shift knob in a Ferrari or Lamborghini on a cold or hot day. Anyone afraid of the heat should probably be driving a Camry. Bottom line is, Toyota has what it takes when they feel safe enough to use it.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

Any major automaker has what it takes to lots of things, what they ACTUALLY do is what counts. Look at what the altima was 3 years ago, look what it is now. 3 Years ago, it wasn't in league with Camry, now it is a world ahead. S-Class rides every bit as nice as an LS430, and the interior is marked with classier materials. LS430 feels too much like a super camry on the inside, the door handles, the shiftgear, the air vents are all reminiscent of camry. I don't want to pay 60 grand for a car that reminds me of camry everywhere I look.

The steel shift knob was a mistake. It sits in the sun, it is literally too hot to be touched on some days, a freind of mine has one. He keeps a rag in the car for just this reason. He wears driving gloves in the winter as neccesity. Would it have been so hard to do it like anyone else and just use plastic or leather? Anyone tall can appreciate the lack of room in the IS300 as well. IS300 just isn't in league in terms of design ergonomics and refinement with its european competition. BMW 325i costs the same amount as IS300, goes even with it to 60, handles on par, and doesn't have any of the IS's numerous drawbacks. MR2 is here to garner prestige, to give people the idea toyota makes exciting cars for young people. Toyota's customer base has quickly gotten a lot older, wonder why?

I personally put high value on a car having a total package, being good in all general areas. Toyota doesn't. They have cars that are exceptional in some ways, and lackluster in others. I look for a car that is above average in all respects. LS430 may be smooth, but it is also a barge and is camry blande. I'd just as soon go out and buy the more exciting, faster, and tighter handling Q45, which is also very smooth, quiet, and refined for 5 grand less.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

The list of automakers who build cars that are exceptional in all areas is a short one, we know who they are. Toyota is not alone in having cars that are really good in some ways and not so in others. As for the MR2, just about every maker has an " image car " made to make the rest of there line look good. Dodge has the Viper, Ford the GT-40, Chevrolet the Corvette. Ford probably started it in the 50's with " There's a little Thunderbird in every Ford. "

The LS430 offers comparable refinement at about 10-15 thousand dollars or more cheaper than it's German rivals and the resale value isn't bad. Not everyone desires groundbreaking personality and style, the LS is non-intrusive in keeping with it's chosen goal. In the $60,000 catagory it's one of the finest cars there is. And I hear the Toyota trucks are pretty good too. :)

diesel2029
Geschrieben

Personally, I never liked Toyotas because I always felt you could get more for your money with other cars. That's the main reason I bought a Nissan Maxima back in 1997 instead of a Camry because I got a V6 (standard) with 190 HP, instead of a 4 cylinder with only 125 horses for roughly the same price.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

right now, you can go out and get a 240hp accord or 240hp altima which compromises little, both very reliable, both luxurious, both sporty, economical, you could get a 220hp Mazda 6 with character, feel, and razor sharp reflexes, all 3 of these offer so many fewer compromises than a camry for the same price. Toyota compromises too much to make their cars totally unoffensive. The greatest risk is not taking one.

bleh
Geschrieben
right now, you can go out and get a 240hp accord or 240hp altima which compromises little, both very reliable, both luxurious, both sporty, economical, you could get a 220hp Mazda 6 with character, feel, and razor sharp reflexes
this brought a smile to my face: fox talking positively about hondas and nissans.

the problem with toyota is that they havent figured out what a sports sedan is. granted all of the other japanese car companies still have some catching up to do(to compete with europes finest). toyota used to be good they just have not advanced with the rest of the japanese market.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

hey, if I only had $25k to spend and had to get a new car, I'd buy a Mazda 6, Altima V6 would be a close 2nd (0-60 in 5.9). They are not on par with the best from europe, but they are less expensive by far in all ways. I think they aren't bad cars for being transverse engine front drive. For family sedans, I hold nothing against mazda, nissan, and am generally ok with honda. For making cars meant to be tuned to the limit, you have mazda RX-7, Nissan 350Z, and S2000 - not protege, sentra, and civic. I don't hate Japanese automakers (beside toyota), i hate what people do to japanese cars. I just don't think you should be comparing japanese cars to their european counterparts just yet.

tallwingedgoat
Geschrieben

Toyota deserve respect for what they are, world leaders in reliability and affordability. Face it, most people aren't car buffs and don't express their personality through a car. Most people prefer a soft ride over firm suspensions. Toyota understands this very well, the sales records speak for themselves.

I do hear a lot about how Japanese cars aren't as good as European cars, which is total BS. I have to wonder are they comparing Toyota to Fiat, to Renault, to Opel, to Citreon and Peugeot? Japanese cars beat all these hands down. It's little wonder European econo cars don't sell here because they are way inferior.

The Japanese are only lacking in the performance catagory against the BMWs and MBs, and in many cases they come pretty close for a lot less money. If I couldn't afford the high end German cars, my first choice would be something made in Japan.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

i'm sorry, are you on something?

quality is higher from japan? how do you figure that? hands down?

reliability and affordability from toyota?

I'll agree, european cars are expensive, but their durability makes up for it. Japanese cars are built well, but not engineered to euopean standards. Working on a toyota or a honda is usually much more involved than a volkswagen or a volvo.

you'll get more car for your money on a ford focus than you will a corolla, and the sales reflect that.

Camry is becoming dated, it offers less power, fewer features, and has an equal reliability rating with the equally priced accord and altima.

accord outsold camry last year. It doesn't suprise me. Accord is a better car. I'm looking forward to seeing altima do it too.

I'd like to see the american makers catch up in quality.

I just think you can have reliable, affordable personality, with a soul and some level of quality performance.

bleh
Geschrieben
quality is higher from japan? how do you figure that? hands down?

reliability and affordability from toyota?

I'll agree, european cars are expensive, but their durability makes up for it. Japanese cars are built well, but not engineered to euopean standards.

consumer reports have released that, in general, japanese cars are the most reliable, followed by european makes, then lastly the domestics. the have also published that it has been this way for the past 30 years. from what i know toyota is one of the more reliable japanese companies.

their performance engineering just needs a little work. which is why it has a bad name on this site. since we are the people who are enthusiastic, passionate, and performance minded about cars.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

consumer reports only tracks up to 100,000 miles, so yeah, up to 100k i'm sure japanese are the most reliable, but in overall durability, the european makes seem to have it.

tallwingedgoat
Geschrieben

I don't know what you mean by more durable. 100,000 mile after action reports are pretty convincing. If a car is less reliable pre 100k, how does making up for it afterwards make me want one?

I'm sorry but I can't agree with you at all. The level of accepted reliability of European cars do not meet the standards of Japanese cars. I'd be interested if you have data proving otherwise. No one is claiming Toyotas are more fun, but then again driving to some people is a chore. If your job is a travelling consultant and you have to drive 4,000 miles a month, mileage and reliability become pretty important.

Honda also makes good reliable cars. The difference is minor, they are basically birds of a feather.

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

the difference between honda and toyota is not small at all.

you can enjoy yourself throughly driving an accord or a civic, they are tuned for better hanlding, their engines feel more willing to be beat on, I would personally never buy a civic or accord, but they are decently enjoyable cars. Driving a camry is about as exciting as riding a tricycle.

The difference is this with reliability.

Small things on european cars do fail. I'll give that to you. Furthermore, these small, usually non critical failures are still expensive to fix. That's where the reputation comes from. Japanese cars usually use a more simple and less failure prone setup, for years honda and toyota stuck to distributor style ignition for that reason.

Average expected max life spans for Volvos, Mercedes Benz, BMW, and Volkswagen are all higher than those for toyota.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

Finally, we get some action in this forum! Anyone who thinks badly of Toyota is thinking from the perspective of a power nut car enthusiast, and it's easy to see why one would feel that way about Toyota if you were one. But Toyota still makes good cars, wholesome if you will. Remember that sloagan, " Toyota everyday "? They specialize in all around family cars for the most part. The Supra twin-Turbo is no longer built, but it still exists, and I really like the Celica GT-S.

The Europeans, at least the Germans, are incapable of producing a truely inexpensive car. The Mini Cooper and Beetle are twenty some thousand dollar novelties. Twenty thousand is alot of money for most people. That price will get you a pretty well engineered peice of German machinery but nothing much else. Features, you want features? You better get that wallet!

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

c'mon now, a jetta is only slightly more expensive than it's japanese competition for comperably equipped models.

Jetta is a true german road car, engineered very well. You can't beat the german's for meticulous engineering. Doing things to the very best is just inate in the german culture.

In europe, you have roads that travel extremely fast. I'm not sucidal, I'm not taking a cavlier, civic, or accord on the autobahn for any reason. It's just practical to have a performance automobile there. Naturally, this makes european cars more expensive, but they are also the most durable built.

Average - Just average life span of a volvo is 277,000 miles. That's just average.

Toyota might be quiet and never give you any trouble the first 120k-150k, but you just aren't beating merc and volvo, and to a large extent BMW for long term durability.

Honda and Nissan cars are every bit as family freindly, affordable, and reliable as toyotas, toyotas are unoffensive to the point of being offensive.

the greatest risk is not taking one.

I'm ashamed of people bland enough to enjoy a toyota camry or corolla, or avalon. A toyota camry or corolla isn't a car, it's just transportaton

tallwingedgoat
Geschrieben

Certainly Japanese cars are not all the same. My girlfriend's brother just bought a Mazda 6, which I think is pretty cool for a family sedan. 220 horses 6-pot with double wishbone front suspension and multi-link in the rear. All this for $22,000! OMG the Germans are raping me!

thepolarfoxqx
Geschrieben

I think passat can take on mazda six.

LateNightCable
Geschrieben

As for Toyota, who could fault the off-road worthiness of the 4Runner and Land Cruiser, both legendary utility vehicles with a lengthy history behind them.

And the Lexus LS430 is the " King Toyota " if you like. Smooth, very conservative, inoffensive. Just what some people like. Hell, if its' too conservative for you, and it really isn't much more so than an old style S-Class, just put on some destinctive wheels. 8)

Polar doesn't think the Celica is a good car, but the GT-S is one of the raciest feeling cars in the compact sport coupe segment. Great handling, great breaks, an exemplary suspension. The 1.8 liter 4 comes into it's own around 6,000 rpm. when the VVT-i variable valve timeing kicks in, it has very good power when you keep it wound up. The Celica is a wonderful track style car. :P

bleh
Geschrieben

this is probably just because i am a honda guy but i would much rather have an integra type r than a celica gts. even thought it tops out at 105, until that point that car is a lot of fun.

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