Just a silly thought.....

[thepolarfoxqx]

nissan already is claiming greater than 9,000lbs of towing capacity. DOHC can be tuned for very good towing performance. I have no doubts with a 5spd automatic and more horsepower and torque, the nissan will tow say a 3,000lb 18ft runabout and trailer up the 2mile 7% grade faster.

I've driven an SRT4, and I wasn't impressed.

and you are ignorant to think for 17k you have a car that is "blowing doors off my Boxster S"

the 426 was the most legandary of the muscle car motors? I don't think so. Definately top 5, not #1.

Chrysler is copying off the lincoln LS with the 300C, borrowing a platform from their european arm an building their car on it. not exactly innovation.

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[jterp]

Again... no backup of your juvenile, biased comment.

As was said -- Duel overhead cam motors have no place in heavy duty pickup trucks. Not to mention that Nissan has no experience in Heavy duty pickup market and will undoubtedly have stress issues when its vehicle is put to the test. Just because a company claims something doesn't mean that it holds true. Lots of vehicles claim to have a certain tow rating-- and they do tow that much, but not well. I have been in a position to see the new ram truck in action. In camparrison to an older ram truck (with the 360) and a full sized '02 chevy pickup - it outperformed both noticeably. The ease that it pulled the tow equipment with was remarkable. Having seen and experienced this leads me to believe that the hemi Ram truck is far more capable than the nissan truck will be - and to compare the two is (to use your favorite word) ignorant.

If you didn't like the SRT-4 then that is fine. That is your opinion. But you still haven't provided us with any facts that suggest that it is poorly built or inadequate in any way-- as you suggested before. Quite frankly, I am tempted to question the opinion of someone who chooses an entry level "supercar" (apparently choosing bling bling factor over performance) over better performing, less expensive, less "status symbol" automobiles.

As we all know, the Boxster "S" is no speed demon, yet you are afraid to just admit that anyone could walk into a dodge dealer, buy a neon SRT-4 for 19,995, have the dealer install the stage 3 enhancement for $3,000, and blow your doors off up and down the highway ALL DAY LONG. I understand that this vehicle threatens you, but that is no reason to start throwing the word ignorant around. It is just true. No room to argue. The only fallacy of my previous statement was that it could be done for one third of the price of your boxster. I retract that... you cannot do it for $17k... but you can do it for 23k which is less than half the price of the boxster.

Apparently you know just as little about muscle car history as you do about the neon.. and you present your argument just as poorly. If the hemi is not king then what is? Throw us a fact, man, we're drowning in your BS over here. Say the word "Hemi" to any muscle car guy--- any- Ford guys, mopar guys, chevy guys ... That is one thing that they will all agree on - Hemi is the King. To disagree with that... ha .. now that is "ignorant"

Copying off the Lincoln...? c'mon man... the Chyrsler 300 is a concept dating back to the late 50's ... If you want to have a conversation about this stuff then do it... but don't waste our time making up nonsense.

[LateNightCable]

Lets' talk trucks again for a moment. You say Nissan is already claiming a 9,000 lb. tow rating like it's a big deal. Over 9,000 is standard for a Dodge, all the way up to over 15,000 lbs.

365 hp. and 400 lb.ft. are what you claim for the Nissan. If the standard 5.7 in the Dodge can't yank your chain than with 305 hp. and 555 lb. ft. of torque, the 5.9 liter HO turbo Diesel sure as hell will. And Nissan has nothing to match that by a long shot. Remember, the torque is in the pudding. Nissan is a new player in the arena, and they know little about the true priorities of a large truck. Let me tell you, if that Titan makes it up the 2 mile 7% grade, the engine will be working alot harder than the Dodge.

It's true, no other muscle car engine has the legend of the 426 Hemi.

[thepolarfoxqx]

no other, i don't know about that. the 454, the 427, the 502 galaxy, the 289, 302, 327, even the sad 360 is up there. the 350 - the modern legend. lots of other engines.

The titan is only in 1/2 ton form

apples to apples now, you can't get a diesel in a 1/2 ton truck.

and with that much horsepower and torque, it will be working no harder than the dodge, if not less because the variable valve timing has the engine singing in perfect tune.

[LateNightCable]

I still don't think it will be all roses towing with a Nissan Titan, they haven't the knowlage that comes only with experience.

The 350 is a good " everyman's " V8, and even the 427 doesn't have the mistique of the Hemi. Most of the Ford blocks are in a different class.

* And now - A Little Story About A Neon ... ( yo! )

A very good friend of mine who lives in Hawaii at the moment, came back to visit last winter. We decided to take his rented Neon all around to take pictures for bringing back to Hawaii with him. We cruised up to his uncle's lake cottage one night in warm comfort, listening to good tunes.

On another day, we were driving down a country road in a tiny town called Poe, blink and you'll miss it, seriously. Anyway, we decided to stop for more photos, but we pulled over a little too close to the shoulder of the road. The little Neon dipped sideways, slid, and bellied out on a huge snowdrift - one of the wonders of midwestern living.

A fair bit of digging and engine revving convinced us she was stuck, flat on her chassis. A bumpkin came by in his Chevy pickup and offered nothing, other than verification of what we already knew, " Looks like you're stuck. " Yeah, we noticed Billy Bob, go bale some hay.

Shortly thereafter, a really nice bumpkin came along, in a Ram Turbo Diesel no less. We strapped his tow chain underneith the car, and he pulled the Neon right out of the snowdrift by the rear suspension subframe. My friend and I bombed around all over the place all week, like one often does in a rental, and nothing ever failed, broke, or fell off.

Those are not the attributes of a " very,very,very, badly built car " - Thats' Neon!

And they lived happily everafter ...

[thepolarfoxqx]

any car that dies after ONE WEEK of being bad assed around in is not worthy of sale.

i'm talking about long term durability. I've never seen a neon listed in the newspaper with a lot of miles on it. All of the older neons i've seen at gas stations and such sound like they aren't running even, and it is very rare that I see one older than 5 or 6 years with decent paint on it (even though I'm in minnesota, everything else's paint stands up to it).

I just think you'd do better buying a ford focus or a honda civic, even a hyundai seems reasonably well assembled for the money, i just don't think neon offers the same bargain. You see civics rolling around with 250,000 miles regularly, i'm yet to see a neon get there.

[LateNightCable]

Tell me, have you ever actually seen anything fall off of a Neon, or get stranded by one? You're opinions on the Neon are obviously based upon really old ones, that may have not been taken care of properly. And just because you don't see alot of 250,000 mile Neons in the newspaper, does not mean they are not around. The Neon to many people is a good city car, so really high miles would not be common. There is quite a difference between the original Neon and the newer one, trust me.

I have to wonder if you're not fibbing about driving the SRT/4.

Rental cars are the most bad assed around cars there are, except for perhaps cop cars. And rental companies would not buy them if the quality was atrocious. Unless you have real experience with the newer Neon, don't judge it's durability.

[jterp]

You've never driven the SRT-4 ... probably never driven any chrysler product... You picked a brand out of a hat and decided to hate it without ryhme or reason. That's fine by me... You have provided no actual information or facts to support ANY of your arguments so your opinion, as far as I'm concerned, is worth nothing. The only reason that I chimed in on this thread in the first place was that you were responding to comments and trying to give the impression that your opinion is the general concensus. I am here simply to provide info on how chrysler products are view by unbiased people who do not have vindictive agendas to push.

Buy a hyundai? or a focus? You would probably like that because your porsche could actually outrun an svt focus (and NOT an SRT-4).. Personally, if I had a Boxster S I would sell it and buy two SRT-4's.

Oh, and the 289 or the 360? the 302? the 350? Once again, you have proved that you know very little about muscle car history...

People like you are the reason that I don't go to PCA events anymore.

[thepolarfoxqx]

jterp, you are such a moron you know that.

where in the hell do you get the idea that an SRT-4 outruns a boxster S?

My car is rated to 5.2 to sixty, SRT4 is rated to 5.7, last time I checked, that was slower.

I did go out and drive an SRT4 back to back against a WRX (i was thinking of trading my Jaguar). The SRT4 is a quick car, the motor is torquey as shit, unfortuneately it has all the refinement of an old fishing boat. It torque steers like a banshee, the interior is sad (and don't tell me it has better interior or build quality than a boxster S), it's a lot of motor for the dollar, it's a decent motor they stuff in there, i just think chrysler should do the neon some justice and spend the money to really make it class act. The old escorts were awful, but ford spent the money on focus to do it right. There is potential in neon, it's just not the best car for the money.

I've driven chryler products. I've owned 2 jeeps, and hold nothing against jeep. A freind of the family has a 300M, and that is a nice car, it's kinda slow (like 8.3 to 60), but it handles right and rides nice.

Neon isn't a great car. The reason rental car companies use it is because they get volume discounts from the manufacturer. If they rent chrysler cars, they aren't about to go buy all chrysler and then like a cavalier.

And rental car companies don't keep cars very long either. That's why they're always new.

Fine, the new neon is an improvement on the old one.

The old one was trash. The new one just isn't to par with all of the competition. The focus is a best seller, it's on 3 car mags 10 best lists, things neon isn't.

And the 289 was a legendary mustang motor. The 360 has been a solid workhorse for decades, the 350 is the every man's muscle car motor.

and the 400 Big Block is every bit the legend, if not more than a 426.

Is it just me, or did you just throw stones at every engine i mentioned smaller than 400ci?

you're one of those bigger is better needs to compensate guys aren't ya?

[LateNightCable]

As " legendary " and powerful as the other engines may be, I have to say that I never hear about the 400, the 502, or any of those like I hear about the 426 Hemi. That engine simply stands out in people's mind's as the " ultimate musclecar engine " more than the rest, which is what that debate was about. I'm glad you agree that the 350 was the everyman's muscle motor, we've got that straight.

As far as out running your Boxter S, I think what jterp meant was, that he would outrun it in an SRT/4 with the Stage 3 package he mentioned. Even still, I think a good turbo motor would have an acceleration advantage past 60.

Rental companies could just as simply get a volume deal on a load of Focus's, but they choose Chrysler. True, rental cars are not kept past one model year, but they are not falling apart around that time either. It just does not justify your terrible review of the Neon.

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[jterp]

Aww, are you getting flustered? Maybe I should stop proving that you have no idea what you are talking about... would that make you feel any better? I mean, to resort to name calling is just childish...

I never said any of those motors were bad, and indeed have a 360 motor myself. But, as I said before, it is a well known and accepted fact that the 426 hemi is the king of the muscle car powerplants.. I never brought up anything about "workhorses" or "every man's"-- I said the king. I also never said anything about bigger is better-- if that were my mentality would i have not chosen the 440 or the 454? No, see, my information is based on FACT and the FACT is that in the days of the muscle car, when drag racing was actually done by the manufacturers with production cars -- the hemi was the king of the dragstrip. Ask any muscle car guy what motor he would choose if he could have any...

Since stats for the stage 3 upgraded neons have not been released, I guess the stats for the STOCK car will have to do... Mind you the dealer installed stage 3 upgrade will take hp to 300.

If a race were to sixty mph then your porsche might beat a STOCK SRT-4... but by the time you get to the quater mile that STOCK neon has picked up a good half a second on you... and if you dont limit the distance of the race I'm pretty sure its governed top speed of 155 is faster than your porsche's as well. If you dont like the interior then ok... I understand the car is not for you-- it's for the people on a budget who want a well built, fast car without worrying about embroidered leather seats or flashy stainless steel trim.. This car is built for people who don't play into the 'my car cost more so it must be better' mentality that you obviously are so caught up in. It's built for people who want performance in their automobile and plush cushions in their living rooms.

While we're on the subject, since when is Porsche's product so flawless and resistant to breakage? Last time I checked, Porsche products were tough to maintain and service, often requiring special tools and factory trained mechanics. I tell you what, when it's time to settle up with my mechanic, I'd rather get two neon bills than one porsche bill. Heck, even if you are right and the neon only lasts 80k miles (purely hypothetical) --since they're less than half the price of your car - I could drive one for 80,000 miles, throw it away, then buy another one. Between the pile of cash I'd have left over and the money I could make by selling Boxster "S" doors on ebay, I'd have enough cash to get a third one when that one klunked out.

[thepolarfoxqx]

firstly, we don't know anything about some stage three to come. It will cost more.

My boxster S will still be sexier, still have a nicer cabin, still be better engineered, still be a symbol of performance.

explain how the 426 is anymore the king than GTO's big block 400?

[LateNightCable]

For 50 sum thousand dollars that Boxter damn well better have nicer cabin and top rung engineering. Whether it's sexy or not is a personal matter, and what makes you think the SRT/4 is not a symbol of performance, it sure is.

What makes the 426 the " king of big blocks " over the 400? First I have to ask, why did you single out the 400?

* 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, 426 Hemi ..... 425 hp. @ 5,000 rpm ... 490 lb.ft. @ 4,000 rpm.

* 1969 GTO Judge w/ Ram Air IV, 400 V8 ... 370 HP. @ 4,600 RPM ... 445 lb.ft. @ 3,900 rpm.

Those are the published figures, I know that at least the 426 made more than 425 horses at 5,200 revs. The 400 never publicly made 400 hp, and only made 500 lbs. of torque with an automatic. And since 1/4 mile times are one of the things these cars were famous for, below you will find a range of 1/4 mile times for the above cars, taken from publications of the time.

* '69 Roadrunner ... 13.32 @ 107 - 13.38 @ 108

* '69 GTO .............. 13.20 @ 104 - 14.10 @ 100

There, now that we have had this little class, can you honestly say that you hear about the 400 like you do the Hemi?

[thepolarfoxqx]

maybe it's just cause i'm in minnesota, but no one here much gives a damn about the 426, we are bread butter chevy and ford folk up here. Everyone calls the 400 big block the muscle car engine of muscle car engines. sure ford's 502 was bigger, or chrysler's 426 was more top end, but there was just something magical about the 400 big boy, it was the GTO motor, and growing up, when you said muscle car, every kid thought of a GTO. to me, gto is still the greatest muscle car.

i'll say a charger is a good car, and the hemi 426 was a good motor, but GTO is an institution, and that 400 big boy motor's bark is the sound of fast to my parrent's generation of fast car people.

[jterp]

I find it fascinating that the "people you know" are completely different than everyone else in the universe.... reagrdless, I find it equally as fascinating that although every point you make is fundamentally without factual reason -- in your mind you are never, ever wrong about anything... neat... like i said -- the reason i quit going to PCA events..

Since you are so into sales numbers let me ask you this question... when is the last time a vehicle with a 400 motor was sold for over half a million dollars? Take a look the next time an original hemi-cuda convertible is up on the auction block and you'll see exactly how many people want one.

"Institution ... blah blah blah" -- what magazine did you copy that nonsense out of? As LateNightCable said, in the days of the muscle car there was no talking about who's car did what... they took their beasts stright to the dragstrip and showed everyone exactly what they were capable of. The fact is that nothing was faster than the hemi powered cars.

You think a boxster S is a symbol of performace? A 911 turbo is a symbol of performance-- a boxster is an entry level afterthought. I do agree it's sexy... especially since it's usually driven by doctor's wives as they make their way from the country club to the salon. It's underpowered and overpriced - every magazine that's tested is has been disappointed, doesn't sound like too much of an engineering marvel to me.. But your seats are nice -- personally I like cars that impress with performance rather than carinthian leather, but that's just me.

If you had read my frist post instead of scoffing at the fact that we were talking about a neon, you would have realized that I have some information about the aftermarket tuning that can be done to the SRT-4. I was at a show in Columbus last weekend and was able to talk to the Mopar Performance guys who are helping to develop it. Upgrades are dealer installed and can be done befre customer even takes delivery. Stage 1 is already available for less than $1000. Stage 2 will be available soon and stage 3 should be available for next spring. Stage 3 incorporates suspension upgrades as well as a free flowing exhaust, new injectors in the turbos, compression and timing changes... etc.. None of this is finalized so it hasnt been released yet, but the stage 3 car is expected to have more than 300hp.

[thepolarfoxqx]

you know, you are kinda offensive, in the same way a 14 year old is.

they made how many hemi cuda converts? anything made in that small of a production number would. There weren't that many rare cars like that that got the 400, i'll agree, but it's questionable criteria at best.

You should drive a boxster S, it is a very pleasant, powerful, athletic, and capable car.

I'm not a doctor's wife. don't judge a car by who drives it.

i'll agree a 911 turbo kicks ass on my car and is much more of symbol.

it's interesting you find that every magazine was dissapointed.

boxster has won how many comparos now? like 3 of the last 4 i've seen.

maybe it's not muscley like a vette, but it comensates in its svelte proportions, refinement, and handling.

that's fine, some stage three this that big turbo.

I had a volvo 850 T-5R pressing well over 320hp at the wheels, what's your point. That beat camaro SS's. It wasn' half the car the boxster S is.

[jterp]

If my posts are offensive then what would you call a post that contains name-calling?

I guess you and I read different magazines.. The last comparrison test that I remember with a boxster in it had it losing to an S2000 and a 350Z...

I'm sorry, however, that I judged your car with a limited knowledge of its characteristics. The fact that you got angry about my comments, though, simply proves my original point -- that you should have facts to back up your arguments and not bash a car based simply on heresay. I thank you for that.

Enough said.

[LateNightCable]

If certain people don't give much of a damn about the 426, it's mainly because they can't get their hands on one.

My own personal favorite muscle car engine though happens to be the 440, partly because I like the sound of " four-forty ". And it's alot more accessible than a Hemi.

[jterp]

440 's are a lot more accessible, and can be built to run just as good as a hemi. My uncle had a '69 440 6 pack roadrunner with a motor that was professionally blue-printed... Running in the factory stock class (which means through stock exhaust manifolds and on bias belted tires) it was running 12.50's

[thepolarfoxqx]

some people just aren't dodge fans. In the upper midwest, if you've been here, Ford and Chevy account for on average 1 out of every 2 cars you see at least. In more rural areas, they can be 9/10 cars.

Dodge just doesn't have the kind of following here they do other parts of the country. To me, the 289, 302, and 350 are what small blocks are about.

Around here, if given the choice between the 426 Hemi Charger and the 400 Big Block GTO, damn near everyone wouldn't even think, just be "i'll take the goat"

the 400 is every bit as accesible as the 440, every bit the muscle car legend power motor of the 426, and the heart and soul of how many different GM musclecars?

No one here much gives a damn about dodge. I guess we must just be wrong, seeing as Ford and GM clearly are inferior automakers with their signifigantly higher sales figures.

[jterp]

There you go again, speaking for everyone else... Did all these people you know appoint you their spokesperson? Why do you find it necessary to speak on everyone else's behalf? If you have an opinion then state it and back it up, but please stop acting like you are speaking for everyone else -- that is simply a logical fallacy. So far the only person that I've seen agree with you is you. We all know people from all over the country. If you've ever tried to restore an old muscle car you would know that you must have contacts all over the country to find the parts that you need. You do not live in some little bubble that no one else has ever been to or heard of.

What sales figures are we talking about here? I thought we were talking about muscle cars? Please keep your arguments straight.. If in fact you have some ridiculous sales numbers to try and help you determine which engine was more influential in its day then by all means share... If not then what the hell are you talking about?

Who said anything about smallblocks?

FACT is you have two muscle car enthusiasts on this site that are absolutely shocked by the fact that you are even making an argument out of this topic.

And stop picking on the Neon... you have 3 different open threads on this site where you continually bash the car FOR NO REASON!

[LateNightCable]

So basicaly, you're saying that the 400 is the king in your tri-state REGION.

Where I am, which is definately the midwest, there seems to be a pretty good mix. Ford stuff, GM stuff, Dodge stuff - and a whole lot of rice stuff.

What about your local Dodge dealer, he must be selling cars and trucks to somebody, or he would'nt be there.

[thepolarfoxqx]

I pick on the neon because it is an economy car. there is some moron running around telling me it will kick ass on every thoroughbread sports car not powred by a hemi.

you say on the dragstrip nothing ever beat the hemi powred cars (i'm quoting ya there). Really. The best quarter late night listed for the GTO is faster than the fastest he found for the charger. I guess the hemi powered cars weren't ALWAYS the fastest huh?

You lecture me on logical fallacy when your arguments against the 400 include "when was the last time a 400 powered car sold for over a million dollars" and degrade a boxster S by saying "they look sexy because of doctor's wives driving them around" C'mon. That is logical fallacy, that is a failure to use logic at all.

I'm saying growing up, i'd ridden in, seen quite a few of, heard all about, and seen tons and tons of old GTOs, Firebirds, Vettes, Mustangs, Galaxies, T-Birds, and the like.

I'm saying when I went to muscle car shows, where enthuusiasts brought out their cars, there were easily 4 GTOs to every charger, every where I went.

I'm saying that the twin cities has, and I got out the yellow pages and counted, over three times as many chevy dealers as dodge.

i wasn't elected spokesman, i'm simply saying that where i live, dodge cars don't sell as well. Dodge has never outsold GM or Ford ever in a calnedar year. That's fact. In minnesota, 2.5 GM cars are sold for every chrysler to sell. Ditto for ford.

I'm not saying i don't respect dodge cars. I am saying that to me, and most of the car enthusiast I know, the very very subjective category of most "legendary muscle car engine" doesn't go to dodge.

I'll come honestly by being a ford guy. Grew up one, to me, their cars have always made more sense, but GM built what I was brought up as knowing as the quintessential muscle car. The GTO.

So you know what, this isn't fact. GTO and charger ran damn near to even on the strip, both were fast and muscle car icons.

I am saying i, and the majority of the musclecar enthusiasts I know, have always thought of the GTO with the 400 Big Block as the quintessential muscle car.

And on the neon. You call me a moron for not buying an SRT-4. I am simpy explaining why Neon is a 2nd rate economy car, and not something to be directly compared to a boxster s. the standard neon is outclassed by a number of its competitors, SRT4 is a lot of engine for the dollar, that is true. It just isn't the same. And your talk of Stage 3, that is after market tuning. Doesn't count. We could go back and forth "well I could slap a bigger turbo on mine, and I could do this" and it would get no where.

215hp - SRT4 isn't taking down a boxster S, sorry.

[LateNightCable]

Actually, my quote was for the Roadrunner, not the Charger, and the times I listed for the GTO were faster overall. But the Roadrunner was doing 107 - 108 mph when the GTO was doing 100 - 104. So really the Hemi was pulling harder and would soon overtake the GTO. So in that sense, it's probably safe to say that indeed, nothing could take a Hemi. There are many variables that could change things either way, they are very close. The Hemi Charger may even be faster, I'll check that out. Afterall, jterp's uncle had a 440 Charger doing the 1/4 mile in the 12.50s'.

Also, I don't think the Stage3 Neon package counts as " aftermarket tuning " because it will be available as a dealer installed option according to jterp, thats' about as before market as you can get. Porsche does not have any option of the sort for the Boxter. So a 300 hp Stage3 SRT/4 would still be " factory".

[LateNightCable]

I just checked, the fastest factory street car with a Hemi that I have seen was a '70 Dodge Challenger Hemi SE with a 4.10 axle ratio. 13.1 @ 107 mph. A '70 Plymouth Barracuda 440 Six-Pack was even faster in the 1/4 somehow, same ratio, 13 seconds flat.

The fastest with a 400 is still the '69 GTO, 13.20 @ 104 mph. ( 3.90 ratio )

Like I said before, there are so many variables with these cars, a mind boggling array of axle ratios for one.