Just a silly thought.....

[thepolarfoxqx]

then since dinan stuff is sold and installed by bimmer dealers, i guess that is factory.

that means an E39 M5 is faster than a Viper.

ouch.

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Hallo T88TurboStang,

 

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[LateNightCable]

One difference though, those parts say Dinan.

The SRT/4 Stage kits say Mopar.

From what I gather on www.dodgeparts.com, the Stage 1, or Level 1 as they call it is just under $320 and will ramp the power to 240 hp. @ 5,200 and 260 lb.ft. @ 2,400 - 4,400 and they're taking orders now. $320?

Level 2 ( $ 1,102 ) is basically a suspension kit, with Level 3 ( $1,283 ) adding rebound adjustability.

$2,705 and some gumballs and you have a hot performer that can run, and handle even better than before! VW, Honda ... Porsche, look out, Dodge is in the house! 'Cause hot power and handling don't have to come from Europe anymore. C'mon Polar, cheer 'em on! Also, they have a short throw shifter assembly ( $96 ) and a blow off valve conversion kit ( $69 ).

And why are we talking about Dinan parts now for anyway? I thought we were talking about Hemi's and the SRT/4 Stage3 running with a Boxter.

[thepolarfoxqx]

ok, 240hp, the heavier SRT4 isn't going to outrun me. Sorry.

it'l be a tight car, definately quick for cheap, but unrefined as shit. it's all a tradeoff.

it is great that there is a car of this level of at the limits performance available for this price again.

now if only pontiac solstice becomes reality, the american auto industry might just be gettting it.

[jterp]

Plain and simple - the neon is faster than your boxster. The STOCK NEON SRT-4 is quicker to the quarter mile. With the turbo and the power curve that the car has there is no reason to suspect that its acceleration is going to fall off after the quarter mile, and its top speed is faster than your porsche's.... It IS faster. No arguing about it... it IS faster. I saw a bone stock SRT-4 (no dealer installed upgrade - a K&N filter as the only mod) run a 13.96 in the quarter mile. What does your porsche run? 14.6? 14.8? Your car is slower.

Now, here is the point where you continue to talk in a circle. You will come back and say "more refined this.." and "interior that..." and "sleek .." and will start this whole mess all over..

Whatever.

We are not talking about that. We are talking about which car performs better. The point that I am refuting (since you keep forgetting what your point is) is

"215hp - SRT4 isn't taking down a boxster S, sorry"

Yes, yes it is. It runs better. It will outrun your Porsche. And no, I never "called you a moron for not buying an SRT-4."

I, unlike yourself, would not stoop to the level of name-calling on an internet message board. I don't care what you buy. Actually I'd prefer it if you didn't buy an SRT-4.. please stay with your kind at he PCA.. - As I said in my earlier post, (do you read any other posts) you were unfairly bashing the SRT-4 without any factual information to back yourself up.

Further, after all this discussion, you still have not come up with one design flaw or poorly designed piece of the SRT-4 that would suggest that it is a sub-par vehicle.

And your quote

"I'm not saying that I don't respect Dodge cars" ...

Are you changing your tune? Because on the first page of this thread you said

"And, no, American car enthusiasts tend really not to like dodge, in fact, I hear the saying "Mopar, Slow Car, Never be a Racecar" very often."

That doesnt sound like respect. It sounds like you have a grudge against Dodge, and you are conveying that grudge to the global users on this forum as the opinion of ALL AMERICANS... Again, you are not our spokesman. Please refrain from making these general comments, especially since when questioned you quickly narrow your constituent base to 'northern midwest America'.... I have a hard time believing that you are even informed about your own region, considering that on the first page of this thread I was one of the Americans you were 'speaking for'

As far as 400 motors appearing more frequently than hemi's ... does the fact that there are more of something automatically make it better? When speaking in terms of muscle cars, in fact the oppostie is true. There are lots of 318 motors and 340 motors out there, you can build a complete one for $400... You can build a 440 4 bbl. for less than a thousand. You can build a nice 400 motor for around the same. Like anything, the market prices for these motors is determined by supply and demand. The DEMAND is so great for a 426 hemi that to build one it would cost you over 10k .. Hemi aircleaners go for $2000 alone! I understand that there were more 400 motors made and so supply is greater. That adds to my point as well. They were common in their day. Everyone had one... and they ran well. But they were an everyday thing. A hemi was something that you didn't see very often (they were expensive for the time) but if you had one and you pulled into a parking lot, everyone crowded around your car to see you open the hood. The hemi was known as the best-- the motor everyone wanted. --- the long and the short of it is, the fact that you don't see many hemi cars at shows does not mean that the people there don't want them, just that it is more economical for them to build a different car.. I concede that the hemi cuda convert was a low production vehicle. But you cannot buy an original hemi car -- ANY hemi car- in decent shape for less than 50k (more for numbers matching). There are 44 GTO's on ebay - all but one under 20k. Of course you are going to see more of the less expensive vehicle...

[LateNightCable]

Since the Neon is such a cheap lightweight in your eyes, I'm surprised you don't know that the SRT/4 is actually substantially lighter than your Boxter. My '97 M3 has less horsepower and more weight and can keep pace with that Boxter any day of the week. You know the SRT/4 can.

I know it can't be a good feeling to come to the realisation that your $58,000 Boxter can be humbled by a Neon, but it's a fact. Look on the bright side, the next time you're in the market for blazing performance, you won't be limited to expensive stuff from Europe any longer.

How long are you going to drag out this 400 is the greatest, Neon is garbage campaign? You still have'nt backed your claims with any real facts.

[jterp]

Latenight -

The level 2 and level 3 mods listed on dodgeparts.com are not the upgrades I was thinking of - but they look they would really glue this thing to the road. The stage 2 and 3 version of the turbo upgrade will be available within the next few months and will incorporate free-er flowing exhaust and bigger injectors...etc. for an estimated 300 hp (stage 3). Stage 2 is supposed to be a mix of stage 1 and 3 and land hp right in the middle.

[SERGIOE34]

wow ok you say that the neon is a GREAT car?i highly disagree.im not going to completly bash the car but in my eyes it is far from being GREATNES.i actualy was driving one about a month ago.i was going to visit a freind in jail.his sister has a neon.i drove thou ofcourse.we were running a little late so i was driving pretty fast.that car is very very very unstable at high speeds!at one point i hit about 105 or 110mph.the steering weel started to shake and the car felt like it was going 2 fly away or fall appart.it is simply a cheap car for people t0 get from A to B in.and as for comparing it to a boxter s in my eyes that is a joke.the neon has no soul or passion like the boxter.it is just a car.it does not feel alive like the porche.and as for it beating it in 1/4mile.i dont care if it was 3 secs faster i would still fell more pleased with the porche.the neon lacks refinement.as in most dodges.even the viper is a dissapointing car for us americans 2 look up to.just a big heavy 8.3l v10 pushrod engine that only makes 500hp.as apousedto bmws 5.5l that will be a hell of a lot lighter use half as mutch gas and still have 500-550 hp without that big obnoctios engine.im not bias 2 dodge or american cars but cmon.they have 2 step there game up a notch.

[jterp]

were you in an SRT-4 neon? doesn't sound like it. The SRT-4 that I drove was very stable up to 130 (that's as fast as i went in it.

The price alone dictates that the cars are in seperate classes and appeal to different markets. We are talking about which performs better.

BMW has a naturally aspirated 5.5L engine that makes 500 hp?

[LateNightCable]

Sergioe, if you'll look above you will see we're talking about the SRT/4 Neon, which is a very different experiance. Different tires, suspension tuning and everything.

Dollar for dollar, the SRT/4 is a " GREAT " car. There is a lot of fun and enjoyment to be had here. Besides, I see nothing wrong with a car that is a little rough around the edges, as long as it has it's game down, which the SRT Neon has. It gives a car charictor.

[daugbjerg]

BMW has a naturally aspirated 5.5L engine that makes 500 hp?

Still a lot better than the Viper pushrod engine, and I bet the BMW will rev much higher, it's afterall a M engine

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Hallo T88TurboStang,

 

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[jterp]

It was a question... do they have one? I have heard nothing about it.

If not we are comparing apples to oranges.

[SERGIOE34]

well u can read all about it in the bmw forum but.yes thay do its slated for the e60 m5.its a 5.5l magnesium alloy v10 that makes atleast 500 at most 550hp naturally aspirated.it will be the most sophisticated engine in a production car ever.the new m5 will have better power 2 wheight ratio than viper zo6 and 911 turbo.it will be faster than all of them.fox can probly tell more like torqu and stuff.

[LateNightCable]

Actually, high-rev capabilities are over rated. It doesn't really matter how high, or low and engine can rev, that's just about bragging rights. Horsepower per liter is most important.

Have'nt seen much of Polar around lately, I wonder why.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the advantage to revving high is simple, you can have a smaller lighter engine making more horsepower. Horsepower is equivalent to torqueXrpm=hp.

BMW has a 5.5L V10 making between 500-550hp, it puts out aproximately 380-400ft/lbs of torque, it features 10 indapendant throttle bodies, each bank has it's own computer, there are rumors of direct injection systems and a magnesium block. It has infinately variable intake runners, VANOS 3 variable valve timing system. Redline is set to be as high as 9,000rpms, while 8,000rpms is more likely. But they do have a naturally aspirated V10 pumping as much a 100hp/l

Actually, my car is faster than 14.4 or 14.6 in the quarter.

and it isn't any heavier than an SRT4. The M3 is as quick to sixty, and close to as fast in the slalom as the S, and that is because M engines have traditonally been tuned for a very flat torque curve, M cars have always been unusually fast for their hp/weight ratio. Porsche tunes for high end, it is fun, just less performance to the horsepower.

let's just agree to disagree on 400 vs. 426, it's preference i think. 426 is more exclusive and more horsepower, 400 more accesible and a very good performer just the same. It's preferance.

same on neon SRT4. I'll be the first the to tell you, Boxster S is not a good deal for the money. It's our toy car. My first choice was the M-Roadster, it is faster and less expensive. Unfortuneately, I just couldn't get comfortable in one, furthermore, it was a lame duck, about to be replaced. Corvette may be fast, but is desperately lacking refinement and a quality interior (which was important to me), SLK 32 was a really nice car, but i wanted a stick shifter. I looked at an SVT Cobra, it was ok, it just didn't do it for me. The supercharger whine wasn't cool.

An SRT4 is a lot of bang for the buck. It is a fast, tuneable car. it's impressive.

i personally wouldn't get one. i've always had a taste for the european performance car. i grew up on euro cars, and have grown use to their fancy interiors, the refinement, and the dynamic athletic feel behind the wheel, even when it is deceptive.

I like american cars. There was a time when they were the best engineered in the world. I'd like us to get back there. I just don't think we're there yet, but we're definately getting closer.

[jterp]

Agreed to disagree... Although if you were to drag race your S i think you would be hard-pressed to get it through the quarter any quicker than 14.5.

Car and driver had it going through at 14.6 and they usually aren't more than a tenth or so off...

I'm not sure what your math formula is showing there... torque x rpm = hp???? not where i'm from it doesnt...

Segio that is a very impressive engine that BMW has developed there.. It makes a lot of power --- lower displacement has yielded less torque, though.

[thepolarfoxqx]

ok

the formula that i was taught in my engineering class in college is this

(ft/lbs torque X rpms where torque is generated)/5,252 = hp at that rpm.

it's just the mathematical formula. I promise it's accurate.

I've seen other mags test it and get very close to 14. I'll agree that the number varies from 14-14.5, but there are things like how many miles were on the engine (porsche engines are VERY tight from the factory), the altitude, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, all of which can cause slight differences.

The engine on Boxster S is nice, but the handling is the strong suit.

Even so, 400ft/lb of torque isn't bad for a 5.5L engine, furthermore, since it does rev up 8 grand, you can just put a shorter rear diff ratio in to compensate.

say you have an 8.3L making 525ft/lbs and a 2.83 rear axle, let's just use 4th gear (because it's 1:1 to compare), you'd have 1,485ft/lbs of torque to the wheels. Since the 5.5L revs higher, you can put a shorter rear diff, one of say 3.62 back there, 400 with a 3.62 gives you 1,448ft/lbs of torque, and with a redline of 6,000, a 2.83 is more or less the same as a redline of 8,500 with a 3.62, so they end up putting the same amount of torque to the wheels, and rumors are that the torque curve on the 5.5 is out to beat the one on the 3.2L I6, which is already very flat.

The 0-60 number i keep hearing everywhere is 3.7-3.9. That is FAST for a sedan of that size.

[jterp]

The math is all very nice, but if you put a shorter axle in you will be constantly traveling at a higher rpm -- which is uncomfortable for long trips that one would take in a car like a BMW. It also yields worse fuel economy and cuts down your top speed. Not to mention, just because you can equate the peak torque values does not mean that the torque is the same. Torque at the low end of the rpm range in the 8.3 is equal to the high end of the torque curve in the 5.5.... you can't possibly think it will feel the same.... ?

[thepolarfoxqx]

you have to realize that the gearing in a viper is goofy tall. 6th gear at 70 is 1,400 rpms. That's because the 8.3L is a loud motor by nature, it shakes, and does suck down gas. It was just tuned for low end, and that is where it's practical to cruise with that engine.

The E60 M5 will turn over 3,000 rpms at 85mph in 6th gear. BMW's engines have traditionally been smooth and quiet, so 3,000 at 85 shouldn't be too big of an issue. My Jaguar turns over closer to 3,800 at 85, it's still quiet, smooth, and does fine for mileage. BMW's direct injection should keep mileage high anyhow. They are getting 19/24 on the 760Li, a 5,000lb sedan with a 440hp V12, so go figure.

The 5.5 doesn't have the lowend of the 8.3L, they say the 5.5 is tuned similarly to the 3.2, so it will likely come alive around 2,500-3,000, and from there the torque pulls strong and even all the way to the nearly 9,000rpm redline. You can't argue with their 0-60 time, it's just plain fast. However they do it, it works.

[LateNightCable]

Extremely high revving engines are not the most practical for a road car, or even a race car nessecerily. It's just harder on all the componants and can burn up just as much gas as large displacement in the long run. There is no substitute for displacment / combustion area.

A large engine running along at a low rpm is always going to be more comfortable, and the torque is where it should be, down lower, and not in the stratosphere. Breathing is more important than how high a redline is, there is no practcal reason for insane revs, if they are needed for great power, than your fundementals are out of wack.

By the way, the Boxter S is heavier than the SRT/4 - 2,870 lbs. as opposed to just under 3,000 for the Box.

[thepolarfoxqx]

not really.

[LateNightCable]

Yes, really.

What are you disputing? The weight of the Boxter, or something else?

[thepolarfoxqx]

there are many replacements for displacement, a more efficient engine for example, your BMWs should tell you volumes about that. The boxster S is 74 pounds heavier in curb weight with the manual tranny.

[jterp]

It is a nice engine, no doubt about it.. It's nice to say that your engine makes 100 hp per liter, but push comes to shove, and hp is equal from the two, I would take the one with the torque advantage.

As far as the gearing in the viper goes, it is geared that way not for noise (IMO vipers are too quiet) but to aid fuel economy. It is a large displacement engine so it needs to travel at highway speeds at low rpm to maintain a good mpg. If gearing of this BMW motor is increased to 3.62 then it really isnt going to get any better mileage than a viper.

Also, I've never found 3000 rpm to be comfortable to cruise at.

[LateNightCable]

Heavier still.

Efficiant in terms of needing 9,000 revs to make maximum power that could be achieved from a nominally larger engine at 5,000? That doesn't seem very efficiant to me. It depends on what you deem " efficiant ". Personally, crazy high redlines are not what I call efficiant, engines able to lug around with maximum muscle at 2,000 - 3,000 rpm is what I call efficiant.

[jterp]

--- High revs = more stress = broken stuff.