7-speed autoboxes

[fastsaloons.com]

What are peoples thoughts on Merc creating a 7-speed auto. Apparently they started working on it when everyone else used the 6-speed ZF box.

The amount of torque the AMGs are pulling currently makes me think 6 is probably uneccessary let alone 7 !!

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Hallo fastsaloons.com,

 

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[Mihai]

i heard that merc is working on a 7 speed auto. i think it will debut at frankfurt.

[thepolarfoxqx]

Well, in some cars, most notably cars like Audi and BMW who pull all their torque at higher RPMs, extra gears have always helped, and notice Audi was the first to jump on the 5spd bandwagon, Bimmer debuted Fredrickson's 6spd. A the SOHC 3V layout of mercedes powerplants, let alone the supercharged ones, pull their power in lowend torque, for instance, if you put a 4spd auto in, say an S55, you would know little to no difference. A 7 speed gearbox requires both a dual sun planetary gearbox (like the ZF6), and a dual overdrive unit (I am pretty sure only chrysler uses those). A 7 speed would be heavy by nature, kinda long too. Seeing how often this would have to shift to get through 7 gears, either 6 and 7 are so high you'll only see them in 100mph plus cruising, or this will be shifting all the time, neither of which should increase smoothness or acceleration at all.

Instead of 7 gears, why not just use a variable ratio transmission (like the Audi Multi-tronic).

[GIR]

What's the point in having a 7gear box when your car is capped at 250kp/h?!

[thepolarfoxqx]

i don't know, maybe they will refine the aerodynamics and pull out the cap?

maybe to show they can, maybe to get fuel efficency?

[GIR]

maybe to get fuel efficency?

Good one

[izzyloveslizzy]

Auto is really catching up to Manual. Manual has alwways been the favorite for the majority of drivers, but Auto can now actually do a more efficient job than Manual. And they get better every day. And Mercedes' 7-Speed Auto won't be the only one, I assure you.

[thepolarfoxqx]

The Multitronic is lighter, and more efficent, it does not although allow the driver to control like a manual, which is why a manual will always be the sporting the stick.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Yeah I know but I made my point while remembering that the crowds are tough when it comes to Auto (or even semi-auto / manumatic). But as I said, Merc is one of the pioneers in this field, and they seem determined to change people's minds about the more expensive auto's constant improvement and rising efficiency. If control is all a driver cares about then nothing can persuade him (or her). But the point is that may people don't care about the 5%-10% more control (at least with the new and upcoming versions of Merc Autoboxes). Many (like myself) prefer confort and ease and having both ahands at the wheels. Either way it's all bad news for fans of Manual, because drive-by-wire electronics and all-computer control mechanisms are going to destroy the meaning of Manual as we have all known it.

[GIR]

What I missed on my S500 is a setting which deactivates the auto gearbox or atleast the auto shifting. If they put in an option on there to deactivate autoshifting, thus allowing the driver to shift for himself, would make it perfect.

I have to add that the Sport and Economic settings are just about everything you will need but still shifting for yourself gives that little extra feeling of being in control. It gives you something todo while you are driving.

When I bought the car I wasn't sure cause I had been driving in manuals all my live but once you get used to it you'll never wan't to go back (or can go back).

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Hallo fastsaloons.com,

 

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[thepolarfoxqx]

i hear that Merc. makes the best auto box around.

[izzyloveslizzy]

You "hear"? They DO make the best Auto box. Few come close. I "hear" that Lexus comes close, but not that close. One of the sole reasons for Merc's confidence with proposing and conceptualizing a 7-speed gearbox is the fact that they ARE the best in making Autos. Also, their technologies are getting beter and better and they are trying to be on top (or stay on top) so it makes sense that they'll pull such crazy stunts as making 7-speed auto boxes. Also, while you're at it, Merc, why not make a dual-reverse-gear Gear-Box?

[thepolarfoxqx]

Firstly, I can think of a few people (how about ZF) who would throw rocks at you for even thinking toyota made a better automatic. I think the Bosch/Getrag 6 speed sequential manual trumps everything. I would put VW in the running for top. I have used the sequential shifting on mercedes, bmw, and audis (all of which are better than that in my jaguar - J-Gate) and I will tell you, the audi feels much better in terms of the ratio spacing and shift quality, and the BMW's shifter has a more natural feel, and the electronics seem to be better. Mercedes are built very well, finding a place as a jack of all trades. They are also, by far, the heaviest automatic transmissions around already. The Mercedes 5 speed automatic in the S-Class is over 100lbs heavier than the twin sun ZF-6. Toyota should be left out of this all together.

Also, dual reverses, that is a waste of time, money, and natural resources.

My weakling volvo with an Aisin-Warner AW-70L 4spd auto can go 52mph in reverse, with ONE reverse, and yes, I HAVE tested that.

[izzyloveslizzy]

First of all I think there are a few people who would throw wrenches at you for dissing Toyota (actually most of them probably WORK for Toyota!), but I don't think Lexus just borrow their transmission boxes from Toyota. They DO do their own work, you know? Also, I said I "hear" they come close. I personally wouldn't put them anywhere in the same lineup as Merc and BMW or VW. Porsche is pretty good too, now that I think about it. I like those German "Manumatics" as well.

As for dual-reverse, I'm just kidding and making a non-sensical unrealistic argument. I know dual-reverse would be pointless and a waste. It may have been good in Terminator 2 though, where Arnold was trying to escape the Liquid-Mercury Cyborg T1000 dude and he was backing out of the parking in reverse and the Liquid Metal dude almost caught him. Maybe Merc could have helped! But realisically, and all jokes aside, I'm making a point (as syupid as it may be) that Benz goes too far sometimes. I don't think 7-speed is necessary at all if you want my honest opinion. The fact is you could do a heck of a lot of work on a 6-speed, and amke them shifts "spacier" and give it all more room. A nice tall 5th/6th gear is better than a 7th all together. And I personally can't think of anyone ever needing to switch to 7th gear in the streets. Even if the cops are after you and you're trying to outrun a Lamborghini police car squadron, you're not likely to need that 7th. I think this is one of those "look what I can do" stunts that Benz is pulling. If you think about it some of the technologies they come up with are infact a bit pointless (as cool as they may be; and I realize people may stone or hang me for this comment). <------ That's a nervous laugh...!.

[GIR]

I personally wouldn't put them anywhere in the same lineup as Merc and BMW or VW.

Am I the only one here who sees the obvious Mercedes wannabe attempt of Lexus? I mean just look at their line up and their designs!

And while we're on the subject, there are transmissions with dual reverse gears. Land Rover has 2 reverse gears in their Defender models.

[izzyloveslizzy]

First of all as you yourself quoted me, I said I "WOULDN'T" put Lexus in the same line-up as the aforementioned German automakers.

And thanx for telling me about the freelander having dual reverse. I didn't know that. Maybe they need it.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I've been in an old Land rover (maybe a Range Rover) that had a strange multi-gear slot. It could have had dual-reverse. Do you think so?

[GIR]

I don't know. A friend of mine once wen't on a safari and the had a Land Rover Defender. He showed me a video of it. It had lots of forward gears (9 I think) and 2 reverse gears. Well on a Land Rover it would make sense to have 2 reverse gears but for ordinary driving...

/edit:

Here it is.

The Defender has some special ability to switch between 2 ratios thus turning your 5 speed into a 10 speed and your 1 reverse into a 2 reverse.

Control of engine torque is provided through a robust dual range transfer box, giving you a high and low ratio, with 10 forward, and 2 reverse gears. This wide choice of gearing allows you to power uphill or to crawl safely at extreme angles over loose earth.

The Freelander has a seqiuntial gearbox. The shifter has the same layout as a automatic shifter but there's an extra position next to the drive (D) position. When you push it into that slot you can push it up and down, changing gears up and down. In the D position a computer shifts for you.

I was wrong, The Defender actualy (mechanicly) has a 5,1 box. But the added ability to switch between ratio's turns it into a 10,2 box.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Thanx for the info. But how wil that work exactly? Will the 2 reverse gears, for example, be like a 1st reverse gear and a 2nd reverse gear? And could you go into 2nd reverse and reach higher speeds?

[GIR]

I found a picture of it. The big shifter controls the "regular" gearbox. The small shifter controls 2 gears behind the actual gearbox. You could say that it has 2 gearboxes. High ratio would be used for lower speeds but more power and low ratio would be used for higher speeds but less power.

So when you're driving backwards you'd start off in highratio to get off the ground and build up speed but once the engine starts redlining you'd switch over to lowratio allowing you to go faster.

I don't think it's made for going backwards fast tho. It would make more sense to use this in a situation where you'd have to pull something (a tree) going backwards.

[izzyloveslizzy]

Sounds about right. And thanks for the pic.

I'd like to have a sports-car with a total of 12 or more gears! Pointless, maybe, cool, definitely!

[thepolarfoxqx]

you are just talking about a low range transfer case, if that holds true, low range is only for offroading. In my suzuki, with low range engaged, I have no trouble starting in 3rd (have done 4th before, but it isn't pleasant).

[izzyloveslizzy]

You know it's for a reason they call it "low-range". Your starting your car and accelerating from standstill in 4th or 3rd will have negative long-term effects, as you know, on your transmission. This may not be as harmful in cars that deliver higher Torque, but it is still not the best thing to do and I'm sure you've heard the sound of gears "slipping" when you do that, Fox. Starting in higher gears can most-often actually hamper your acceleration times, as higher gears are used for when your car's already gained significant speed, and you just need to acccelerate. I'm sure you already nkow this (and perhaps know about it better than I do), and I wouldn't recommend for anyone to do this, regardless of the vehicle.

[thepolarfoxqx]

the low range is intended for extremely severe grades and poor terrain in offroading. that is why only SUVs and pickups feature it. I am not slipping my gears actually, i slip my clutch a bit to start. I enjoy turning all 4 tires in the snow and sliding all over the place in mud, that is where this feature pays off.

[izzyloveslizzy]

You do some weird things to normal cars don't you? I'd just be happy to take my car to the track for a nice round or two. Snow and mud? Sorry, that's not my thing (at least not with like volvos and stuff).

[thepolarfoxqx]

That's all the fun! My volvo has seen weird types of abuse. Now I'm driving my Alfa Romeo though, so - more of the track (or atleast twisty mountain road) type driving.