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You cannont buy a z06 for less than MSRP either. If you pay attention to any of the incentive ads that chevy runs you will notice that in fine print at the bottom they say *exclude corvette.

Yes, I would notice a difference in performance. I use my sports car for track events and acceleration contests and in that respect the z06 is hard to match for the money.

and frankly, the advantages the M3, atleast to me, and all the other people buying an M3 over a vette, make it worth it.

And thank you again for proving my point. You want to be able to pick someone up at the airport and throw their suitcase in the trunk. You want fancy leather dashboard. You have it in the M3 ... The corvette is not for you -- it is built for someone who has top performance in mind and does not care about those things... It is not outdated, it is simply built for a different sector of the market.

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What is all this about its not outdated?Most of the basic technology used in the vette is about 50 years old(like the pushrod engine).Its tech is outdated.That dosent mean its not a good car but it could be better.BMWs tech is soposedly estimated to be about 30 years ahead of gm.The I6 in the E46M3 makes the zo6 v8 look like a joke.

30 years ahead of GM, who made that estimate? You can't really estimate the changes that can happen in 30 years, and who will be changed by them. It's not really about whats' outdated, and whats' modern. They both use technology that is ages old. Internal combustion engines, with pistons and oil.

They differ in the way they each approach their duties, but to say that because the M3 engine is smaller and runs faster that it's better is not really true. One could argue that the Corvette V8 is better because it provides more over all power, and although bigger with more cylinders, burns less fuel. And whats' the beef with pushrods? In the end it's just another way to move the valves.

Outdated or not, one fact remains. The Corvette is built as a two seat sportscar, and it performs admirably with what it has. I will say that the M3 would not perform nearly as well as the Vette with the same technology. I like both of these cars, they are both outstanding, and of course things could be done to make either " better ". So whats' this conversation really about?

What is all this about its not outdated?Most of the basic technology used in the vette is about 50 years old(like the pushrod engine).Its tech is outdated.That dosent mean its not a good car but it could be better.BMWs tech is soposedly estimated to be about 30 years ahead of gm.The I6 in the E46M3 makes the zo6 v8 look like a joke.

This is exactly the mindset that I disagree with. Old = Bad? The 6 in the BMW runs very well -- it is an impressive 6. Although not as efficient, the z06 motor produces more hp and more torque -- I, personally, would rather be out enjoying the extra power that my engine provides rather than talking about how efficient and pefect it is..

The point I'm trying to get across is that in the same respect that you guys sit around and type about what a joke the z06 motor is, there are people out there that view the M3 as bulky and underpowered. They, however, kind of have a point becasue they are getting around the track first.

first off, the only reason the vette gets better gas mileage on the highway is because it's 6th is unusably tall. in 6th gear, it takes the vette almost 12 secconds to go from 50-70. it take the bmw m3 a little over half that in its 6th gear, the usuable 6th in the bimmer has a tradeoff, the only reason the vette gets that mileage is gearing.

and the M3 will go as fast and handle as well as a stock basic LS1 vette. It won't outperform the ZO6, but like you said, it has practicality, quality, and refinement on it.

And what is wrong with pushrods. If you had a firm grasp on physics, you'd know how inheriently inefficent and inferior in design they were.

Looks like BMW needs to work on their gearing then, Whats' more important, proper milage, or 50-70 times? Vette has a better city milage rating as well.

I say theres' nothing wrong with pushrod, it's all reletive. With enough power, it doesn't really matter how it gets made. I don't see it as a Vette weakness at all. I don't look down on an engine simply because doesn't rev to 8,000 rpm. And I don't judge every car I see upon the finest from Europe, but rather it's merits in relation to other cars of it's specific nature. I would not want a screaming straight-six powered Corvette, any more than I care for a V8 M3.

Overall, I think the M3 needs more improvement than the Vette, you heard right. That car needs to lose it's ass some weight, like four or five hundred pounds. Vette is on the right track, pushrod V8, leaf spring and all, it's the Vette flavor. Anyone who doesn't care for it can buy an M3.

there is a reason leave springs and pushrods are only on pickup trucks, there are from a bygone era, and only have limited advantages, none of which apply to a sports car.

You say the M3 needs to loose big ass weight, but that the vette doesn't? You know that the M3 is less than 100lbs heavier than the corvette? If you removed the back seat, it would weigh less. So look at it as a trade of two more seats. Also, there is more crap you remove from an M3 to hack it lighter in your garage.

So if the M3 needs to loose 400-500 pounds, the vette would need to loose atleast that much, seeing as it only needs 2 seats.

And a V8 powered M3 is right on the horizon - with over 400hp and weight reduction over the current model (it will get a new chasis and an aluminum V8 as opposed to the iron I6). My guess is that will pretty well own and put down most of this. Seccondly, both road and track and motor trend in comparative tests involving the Vette and either the M3 or M-Roadster, both which have lower EPA mileages than the vette, the vette got the worst mileage of any of the cars in the roundup, the M-Car got the best, both tests!

And in a sports car, 50-70 matters more to me than miles per gallon.

And in a sports car, 50-70 matters more to me than miles per gallon.

You are 100% right. 50-70 matters a lot more in the proper gear. 2nd overdrive is not the proper gear to go from 50-70 in a vette. The number is worthless but if you need to cling on to that number to find a performance stat that the BMW bests the vette in, by all means, keep your M3 in 6th gear and challenge vettes to 50-70mph drag races in 6th gear.

fine, but if you are crusing down the highway and want to speed up to overtake someone or move into a space in anoher lane ahead, the vette that automatically means drop a gear or two, in the M3, you could very well just stick in 6th, that's the advantage of having a close ratio 6spd with only one overdrive unit.

fine, but if you are crusing down the highway and want to speed up to overtake someone or move into a space in anoher lane ahead, the vette that automatically means drop a gear or two, in the M3, you could very well just stick in 6th, that's the advantage of having a close ratio 6spd with only one overdrive unit.

If you don't want to change gears, perhaps a 6 speed vette isn't for you then. My car is geared a bit different than a vette is but I know that I don't use 6th gear at 50 mph. I believe that I idle at more than 50 mph in 6th. 4th is comfortable at 50 as is 5th. You are reaching a bit far with your 6th gear acceleration point.

my point was only that the corvette only gets good EPA rating because they geared it rediculously tall. The car would be better served with a close ratio six speed instead of the spread six with 2 overdrives. The gearing is how the heavier, less powerful M3 is quicker to sixty and generally keeps up with the vette.

and the viper's gearing is identical through the tranny (you both have the same T56), the vette has a 3.42 rear end, i know the viper's is a little taller.

to put the viper's gearing in perspective, 80 mph in 6th gear is 1,600 rpms.

Comparing the vette weight to m3 weight numerically is apples to oranges. C'mon now, fox, you know that. When comparing weights you don't use pounds, you use power to weight ratio -- the vette's 100 pounds lighter and has 70 more hp (z06).

Makars hit the nail on the head as far as the 50-70 thing goes. I know it's very trying on the arm to downshift every once in a while, but for better gas mileage i'll do it. If you really didnt care about the mileage you could always leave the vette in 5th. Or maybe an automatic would be more your speed? :)

there is a reason leave springs and pushrods are only on pickup trucks, there are from a bygone era, and only have limited advantages, none of which apply to a sports car

I understand that theoretically you may think the M is a better car. Theories do not get you around the track quicker. ... Communism works "in theory"

It won't outperform the ZO6, but like you said, it has practicality, quality, and refinement on it.

Like I said, the folks buying the vette don't care about practicality or refinement (and i disagree with the "quality remark") You need these things and are willing to trade performance for them. The perfect car for you is the M -- the corvette is a different car, not an inferior car.

And what is wrong with pushrods. If you had a firm grasp on physics, you'd know how inheriently inefficent and inferior in design they were.

Again, while you are in the pit with your dry erase board giving lessons on why your car is 'superior and efficient,' the guys in the z06's are out on the track going faster than the M's.

the dinan M5 S2, which costs only slightly more expensive than a viper reccords a 0-60 of 4.1 secconds, a quarter mile of 12.3 secconds, a top speed in excess of 190mph, a slalom of 69.3mph, and a skidpad number approaching 1.0 latteral g's. M cars have kahunas, if you just tweak them for a little harder edge, it's there. I'm fully aware that you can do the same to any car, but don't play down what the M-Cars can do. I'm confident the next generation M3, M5 and M-Roadster will firmly cement themselves as best in class performers.

As for quality, in the eighties consumer reports called the vette "the lowest quality of manufacture of any north american car", and if you go by consumer reports tests on durability and build quality, M3 is lightyears ahead. The fact that the M-car's warrantee is almost twice as long also says something. Vette is a lot of things. Extremely well built is not one of them.

I merely meant with my dry erase board that the vette could be so much better if they did those things. They wouldn't be laws of physics if they weren't true.

And just cause i use a dry erase board doesn't mean i can't use a wrench :D

i'm much closer to one of the guys in the pits than i am the guy in a white lab coat with graphing calculator, but just cause my idea of improving a car means getting dirty doesn't mean i don't have appreciation and don't try to learn all i can from engineering (i once aspired to be an engineer, didn't go so hot for me).

Anyhow, i think you might just be a little overconfident in the vette, it is a great car, it's by no means untouchable. The E46 M3 is extremely formidable.

We're talking vette vs. M3 -- not M5 vs. viper.

But since you brought it up -- Are you talking about the old m5 or the soon to be released M5? I've heard quite a few stories about the upcoming M5 -- all speculation 'til it gets here (especially about the price)

Also, a DINAN M5 is an AFTERMARKET TUNED M5. Yes, Dinan is aftermarket. It's acceptable in this argument only if compared to a Hennesy Viper.

Again, you're missing my point about the dry erase board. All your talk of "outdated this" and "bygone era that" doesn't mean much to the people who appreciate a car for what it can do, not how theoretically perfect it is.

As someone who can turn a wrench, I would think that you would appreciate the tuneability of the big corvette V-8 as opposed to the tapped out 3.2 I-6.

The Corvette and M3 could both stand to lose weight, just about every car on the road could benefit from that. The fact that the Vette has only two seats and is only modestly lighter than the M3 is not really an issue I don't think because it's never tried to be anything other than a two seater. It is large for such a car, and has the structure of a convertible from the get go, so the weight isn't too extreme considering. The M3 on the other hand should not weigh as much as it does for such a small car.

I just feel the high torque " truck motor " of the Vette is better suited to hauling around extra weight than the M3 engine, which although torquey in itself is really not a " pulling " motor. If an engine produces it's maximum output in the stratosphere, the car it powers should be as light as possible. Extra weight is kind of negligable in a car like the Vette which pulls hard down low. While we're on the subject, sure lets' give the Corvette a diet too.

i'm not saying vette should be a 4 seater, i'm saying since it's only a two it should be a lot lighter. not to mention that strange lexan body it has (i suppose it is ding resistant, but it says saturn way too much to me). All cars can loose weight, and the M3 obviously has the engine to haul the weight, it hauls it to 60 a tenth quicker, but i'd like to see the M3 get a little more displacement from the motor and less weight.

The Vette should be lighter, true, but there again it's on the large side, with a robust structure though. C6 will be a smaller car. The Vette's body is a tradition, it will never be metal.

I've heard talk of a 3.5 liter six going into the 3-Series. Just talk, not sure where.

but it says saturn way too much to me

now you're just being absurd. And stop reverting back to the base vette. It has already been established that for the price of an M3 one oculd get a z06 -- and it is much quicker than the M3 in every respect except 50-70 in 6th gear.

ok, i'm not talking about dealer incentive this and that, the base price for an M3 is less than that for a coupe corvette, so it is only fair to compare apples to apples, m3 to base vette.

If you can't buy a car for that number then why bother using it as a comparrison? I don't want to argue in the theoretical here, I'm talking if one were to go out today and buy one of these vehicles and bring it home tonight. $52k seems like a good number.

I don't think you could. Not to mention, if you did find a dealer to sell to you for under msrp, you would have to FIND a base model. Not too many ship out -- and no dealer is going to special ordr a base m3 just to sell it to you for less than MSRP. AND, it would be lacking that nice leather interior that you love (bases have cloth.)

from what i can see, it's partially leather, partially a grippy cloth-like material on the base, they call it a leatherette type of thing.

Let's just agree to disagree.

I'd rather pay a few K more than a standard vette to get the nicer leathers and materials, a back seat, higher refinement and a longer warrantee, along with free scheduled maintanance, you'd rather the bigger engine and the sportier 2 seat arrangement. not to say one is right, just different.

fine, it isn't inferior, it has great performance. It's techonology may be older and less sophisticated than the M3 (but the M3 has what amounts to the most sophisticated production engine around), and it's interior and build quality aren't up to where M3 is at, that's all i meant. it's performance is a matter of fact - and is good.

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