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Mercedes Everything about Mercedes.   Price-Check

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Old 10-22-03, 01:46 AM   #11
Arty25
 
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well kevin what the hell do u have to say about the topic
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Old 10-22-03, 07:41 AM   #12
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I found a lot of polar's info interesting. Mercedes manuals suck hind tit. Always have. At best they're rubbery, at worst they're obstinate. Definitely shows where they've put their development money. NOT in improving their manuals. But manual sales have never warranted it. Anyway, they're durable, but no fun at all. Been there, got the t-shirt.

Forgive me for correcting the moderator, but the Lincoln LS is not pulled from the Jag bin. In order, the Ford Mondeo was the original. The platform was, to my understanding made with sharing in mind, but the Mondeo was the first to use it. Then there was the Lincoln LS (a mediocre car at best despite decent handling characteristics), then there was the Jag X-type. The LS and the X use basically the same engine built with core Ford parts and topped off and tuned by the individual makers. The X-type gets very mixed reviews. Satisfactory at best, worst car Jag has put out at worst. I wouldn't spend a dime on the lot. Trash.

I'm glad that we agree that paying for a name and getting short-changed in the quality department is a crap-ass deal regardless of who made it.

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Old 10-22-03, 09:59 AM   #13
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Jesus dude, the point was any car can be likened to any other hell, i didnt want a lecture on every transmission ever used in a car alphabetically and every serial number ever used cited. A yes or no would have sufficed. No i didnt know that, i didnt care. yea mercedes manuals suck, but fortunately their autos shift faster than 95 percent of the population
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Old 10-22-03, 05:09 PM   #14
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What Arty has posted may be sad for SOME of you, but it is
very true.
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Old 10-22-03, 07:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoAnderson84
Jesus dude, the point was any car can be likened to any other hell, i didnt want a lecture on every transmission ever used in a car alphabetically and every serial number ever used cited. A yes or no would have sufficed. No i didnt know that, i didnt care. yea mercedes manuals suck, but fortunately their autos shift faster than 95 percent of the population

The point is that Getrag has the best transmissions around and almost everybody in Europe has been using them for ages now. With mergers and buyouts the US manufacturers are also starting to see how good the Getrag transmissions are.

Building a good trnasmissions isn't easy. You have to have the right equipment and people. Rather then invest in this lots of EU manufacturers outsource their transmissions and so does BMW. If somebody is offering a good transmission for a good sum, a sum you couldn't do it for, why not buy it? And that is the only reason why everybody in Europe uses Getrag transmissions. They're top notch and also very cheap. BMW, VW, Opel or Ford couldn't build the same transmission for the same money.

Getrags trackrecord just proves it. They can be found in any car from low to high end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin321
What Arty has posted may be sad for SOME of you, but it is very true.

Care to tell us why?
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Old 10-22-03, 07:49 PM   #16
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right, but my guy was saying that BMW is independent doesnt share parts, no car company is independent, they all share something. Bosch makes fuel injection for just about everybody. oh yeah, and theres the mclaren, been talked about, also sharing the BMW engine. wait were you telling me wha my point was?
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Old 10-22-03, 08:11 PM   #17
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This is about BMW making their own engines and parts, not about McLaren buying an engine from BMW.

Funny you should mention Bosch cause BMW AG owns a part of Bosch AG. And ofcourse lets not forget about VDO which makes all the plastic parts in the car. VDO is good at pressing plastic, so why should BMW start anothr division for plastic? Bosch is good at making electronics and uC's, so why should BMW start their own division pure for electronics? Both companies can do it cheaper and better then BMW so why should BMW do it themselves?

Both companies make parts according to BMW's specifications, so wether BMW does it themselves or hires someone to do it for them doesn't mater much. The end product is the same.

What you are trying to say and what Fox is trying to say are 2 different things. What Fox said was that BMW independently makes their own engines without any outside influence and without any mother company trying to force stuff onto them like Lambo and Jaguar. What you are saying is that BMW outsources some of their parts.

Yes BMW may outsource their parts but in the end the complete engine has been designed, made and put together in their workshops.
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Old 10-22-03, 09:01 PM   #18
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mercedes makes their own engines and parts as well bmw does just about the same thing. i didnt say theres anything wrong with it, however, here you are, getting defensive...

Rather than mercedes selling their engine to chrysler, they bought the company and put their superior engines in fairly crappy cars.
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Old 10-22-03, 09:46 PM   #19
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I wasn't getting defensive, I was just clearing up the facts. Like you and Fox were misunderstanding each other. From the agressive tone in your posts I would say you are the one getting defensive.

Actually the Daimler-Chrysler thing wasn't a buy out but a merger. Now it seems MB should've waited a while and bought out Chrysler cause Chrysler is causing them mayor losses.

One of the main reasons for the merger was for MB to get a foothold in the US market and for Crysler to get a foothold in the EU market.

The ML class is the only class that's not being buildt on EU soil, it's completely buildt in the US. The ML class is also the car which has had the most recalls of a MB car ever. From simple things to plastic parts breaking of to mayor things like parts of the powersteering breaking off, the ML class has seen it all.

The MBUSA division is entirely supervised by the former Chrysler managment.

The S & CL classes are still being buildt and assembeld in Germany because Daimler wanted their own quality checks on these lines. The rest are not. Well actually the parts are being buildt in germany and then shipped over to the US where the cars are assembeld and painted. Logistic and tax wise this is the smartest thing todo.

What we are seeing is that in the US people are complaining about body panels not fitting correctly and stuff like that. I haven't seen anybody in the EU complain about things like that and it came as a shock to me when I first saw it.

Also MB has allowed Chrysler to contaminate their cars. Just look at the interiour of the all the MB's. They're all the same and they're all butt ugly. Plastic cupholder, plastic door handles, plastic this, plastic that. When you buy a expensive classy car like the S class you would expect to be seperated from a C class buyer, get something more and better. But you get the exact goddamn same interiour. The exact same options that are on the S class are on the C class aswell, except on the S class they're standard and on the C they're optional.

That isn't the MB way. When I was growing up my father had several MB's and all of them had awesome interiours. Everything was nice, beatifull, smooth and most of all strong. Those cars were cut out of a solid block. There was nothing those cars couldn't handle.

These days everything has been compromised for production sake. If it's cheap and fast to produce (which is the American way of producing) then it's in there.

Don't get me wrong. I still love MB the cars they build are still among the luxurious and relaxing cars to drive. Something most people won't understand untill they drive on one. their engine's might not have the natural aspiration BMW has but who in their right mind would want to race with a 2 ton monster? For the weight they have those engine do perform impresively. Most people don't understand that the reason why AMG uses superchargers is because those cars are so damn heavy. They need more lowend torque to get them off the ground, it's just simple physics. But for a car that heavy they still do handle very very well and are a pleasure to drive in heavy city traffic.

First thing they need todo, and we've already gotten a sneak preview of this on the CLS, is change their interiour to something more MB. When I ordered my S i wanted this interiour:


But for that I had to pay 24k euro extra for the designo people and wait an aditional 6 weeks. Something hardly worth it so I ordered everything in antracite black. But you should see some of the other cars.. damn they had ugly interiours.

The current line of MB engines is over 12 years old and MB hasn't shown much interest in redesigning them. BMW does constantly redesign and reevaluate their engines. MB will be putting out a new line of engines somewhere in 2005/2006 which I guess is going to last another 15 years.
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Old 10-22-03, 10:26 PM   #20
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Going back to raptor, sorry to correct you, but the LS is built on the Ford Universal DEW-Lite platform, which was introduced on the Jaguar S-Type. The suspension and chasis, as well as most of the parts for LS come from S-Types parts bin. Ford Mondeo shares parts with Jag X-Type, but not S or Lincoln LS. Lincoln LS is rear drive and uses a longitudinal layout. Mondeo is front/AWD and uses a transversal layout. The engines, transmissions, suspensions, while all tuned by Ford North America, came from the Jaguar parts bin. In fact, did you know the first Ford Thunderbirds (for 2002 forward) were built in coventry, england by Jaguar?

And when i said parts sharing, I mean that you will never see the same door handle or shifter in a BMW as any other car. The original Lexus ES250 and LS400 had doorhandles out of camry. It was sad. Some companies, nissan worst of all still use unchanged parts between nissan and infini brands. Mercedes is coming closer and closer to parts sharing going actively both ways with Chrysler. My Jaguar has parts under the hood that are very much ford. I don't like that. BMW has NO part sharing of that type. They don't develop EVERYTHING in house, or try to. They use ZF automatic transmissions and steering racks, and to be honest, ZF makes the worlds best steering, and best, if not a tie for best with merc. for best automatics. The Siemens control unit used on the six cylender BMWs isn't used by many other people.

And chrysler supervising final assembly on Mercedes, no wonder quality has gone down hill. You don't pay mercedes' premium to get Chrysler's quality.
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